Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: The Dead Sea Scrolls

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Nanaimo
    Posts
    3,785

    The Dead Sea Scrolls

    DEAD SEA SCROLLS: - Dr Norman Golb is a top scholar who makes a plea for the de-politicization of the Dead Sea Scrolls. His plea is not related to the current argument that Palestine will own or control the Scrolls but to the Generals and politicians who piecemeal and with apparent deceit are doling out access to these important documents for the examination of scholars. The original involvement of the Catholic scholars and the Scrolls being housed in a Museum named for the Rockefellers is of more concern to me. The management of the life of Jesus and his brother James ('the Righteous) who led the group at Qumran that some are calling Essenes is why the concern exists for myself and others who know the ways of the Christologists. They have blamed the Jews for 'killing our Saviour'.

    The documents discovered at Dag (or Nag) Hammadi in the same decade were fully translated by 1971 and they are of equal if not greater insight. The life of Jesus as a 'Therapeutae' or Gnostic with a 'Source' of learning in a large family of adepts is contrary to all sorts of proselytes and his involvement of an equal partner and wife puts a lie to a lot of 'only begotten' or other Divine appellations sought by the Popes who have claimed to be the only representatives of the Lord on Earth. This 'Source' is described correctly by Barrett as the very Grail that the Dag Hammadi scrolls represent from the verbal tradition or Qabala. If you consider that there was no name or actual Christians at the time of Jesus we will be starting at a fair beginning. The Copper Scrolls that made coded references to the site of Solomon's treasure were found here as well. That is of import to our continuing effort to know what trade and designs exist (ed) in the Templar to Benjaminite or Merovingian lineage. It is more important to start with this 'Source' as many Biblical scholars are calling it. They call it this rather than a pagan tradition of Bardic and nature worshippers or Phoenicians, as the Father of Biblical Archaeology assures us that even the Bible itself should be seen as being. We are of the opinion that all documents and related things that reflect on the life of Christ are part and parcel of the 'Holy Grail'; and the churchians were crusading and killing to get them and control the truth that might upset their marketing and other plans. Thus we should provide a little proof of the actual religions and politics of the time that Jesus was alive upon this earth.

    "The Bible imagines the religion of ancient Israel as purely monotheistic. And doubtless there were Israelites, particularly those associated with the Jerusalem Temple, who were strict monotheists. But the archaeological evidence (and the Bible, too, if you read it closely enough) suggests that the monotheism of many Israelites was far from pure. For them, Yahweh (the name of the Israelite god) was not the only divinity. Some Israelites believed that Yahweh had a female consort. And many Israelite invoked the divinity with the help of images {Remember Onias' Temple in Egypt and the archaeology of the sacrificing of Ibises practiced by Moses and later Jews.}, particularly figurines. I call this Israelite religion pagan Yahwism.

    The archaeological evidence we will look at comes mostly from Judah in what is known in archaeological terms as the Assyrian period, the span from 721 B.C.E., when the Assyrians destroyed the northern kingdom of Israel, until 586 B.C.E., when the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple and brought an end to the Davidic dynasty in Judah. This period, to put it into perspective, is several centuries after King Solomon built the Jerusalem Temple {Actually done by an architect Mason from Tyre named Hiram but not the King of that name and time.} in about 950 B.C.E. So the archaeological evidence we are about to discuss documents a level of Israelite paganism long after Solomon built an exclusive home for Israel's god. {The Incas and other used such techniques of social management rather than garrison armies in occupied territories.}

    While Yahweh was the god of the Israelites, other nations had their own national gods. The chief god of the Phoenicians was Ba'al. For the Philistines, the chief god was at first Dagon {As noted earlier we suggested a Berber/Phoenician connection to Philistine. This Dagon is almost the same as the Dogon of West Africa who are early observers of Sirius the Dog Star. This is a Berber influence to be sure.} and later also Ba'al {He could mention Bel in Mesopotamia is the same as Ba'al but he is just developing the extensive similarity of the actual worship of people with different names within a gradually degrading or devolving 'Brotherhood'. We can't expect all of these things to be integrated all at once, can we?}(Judges 16:23; 2 Kings 1:2). For the Ammonites it was Milkom. For the Moabites {In Deuteronomy 23 you will see prejudice and hatred excluding them from the 'House of the Lord', 'Yes, even unto the tenth generation' along with 'bastards' and 'he who is wounded in the stones'.}, Chemosh. For the Edomites, Qos. And for the Israelites and Judahites -- Yahweh. Except for the Edomite god Qos, who appears only in the archaeological record, all of these gods are mentioned in the Bible (1 Kings 11:5, 7, 33).

    Interestingly, while each nation's chief god had a distinctive name, his consort, the chief female deity, had the same name in all these cultures: Asherah or its variants Ashtoreth or Astarte. (As we shall see, this was even true of Yahweh's consort.)

    Not only was the female consort the same, the various nations used the same cult objects, the same types of incense altars made of stone and clay, the same bronze and clay censers, cult stands and incense burners, the same chalices and goblets and the same bronze and ivory rods adorned with pomegranates. It was easy to take cult vessels of one deity and place them in the service of another one--and this was commonly done. For example, in the ninth-century B.C.E., stela erected by Mesha, the king of Moab, he describes himself as the 'son of Chemosh,' and tells how he defeated the Israelites (see also 2 Kings 3:4-27). He then brags,'(I) took t(he ves)sels of Yahweh, and I hauled them before the face of Chemosh.'

    We sometimes get the impression that after Solomon built the Temple in Jerusalem, Yahweh had no other sanctuary in ancient Israel -- but this is not the case." (1)
    cont'd
    Last edited by R_Baird; 12-04-2015 at 01:41 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Nanaimo
    Posts
    3,785
    It is possible that the prevalence of the 'one god' was actually a one goddess as we see in the fact they all worshipped one similarly named(identical really) goddess. The reality as we see it was almost the same for Ba'al in this period as well. He goes on to show these multiple and pantheistic practices seem to disappear when the exiles are returned from Persia, (Few came back and those who left were invited guests) so maybe Cyrus and Zoroaster were able to convince them of the error of their ways and we might see what many have pondered in regards to the magi of Zoroaster being a major influence on Christianity in the original foundations and not the more ritualistic Moses. At Qumran many scholars note the people called themselves 'Covenanters of the Law'. Most of them note this law was Mosaic but my perception is different and I believe it was a syncretism akin to Gnosticism and with many adept understandings such as the healing practices of the Therapeutae. Golb makes it clear he is on the side of the Qumran library having been a collection of all the factions of religion and practices in a large area even beyond Judaea. The Roman practice of destroying all literature and writing new ones around old beliefs which were in line with their approaches was the reason for this, and all tribes, zealots or cults knew it.

    The henges of the Emerald Isles which were once wood as some are seeing today, are in the Negev and Sinai deserts as well. The 'Bedouin' ('tent dweller') fiction is not the root as we showed from the scholars of the excellent book Carthage. The article following the one just quoted from Biblical Archaeology Review says this:

    "Take even a one- or two-day trip through the Sinai or Negev deserts and you'll come across scores of them--standing stones erected in a variety of combinations. These stone installations may help us understand the very origins of Israelite religion."
    (2)



    Last year the word about pre-hieroglyphic alphabets in the Sahara were accompanied by more on the agricultural savannah people who had henges too. This is where the Berbers were from and the connection if no simple chance occurrence. The article goes on to discuss 'fertility triads' and whenever you see triad or troad (Greek) you are looking at the central laws of the philosophic Kelts. These parables of process and moral or spiritual concepts are a wealth of insight to this very day. The Triune Nature of Man that was plagiarized into the 'Holy Trinity' and raised to a deity took more of man's self awareness and divinity away from humanity than any of us can imagine. A central theme in the Dead Sea Scrolls is said to be very Zoroastrian in nature (and the Mani attempt to join Christianity and it in one ecumenical religion that Augustine was a promoter of until bought out by the Catholics); - it is simply this: 'There are two spirits 'truth and error'. We surely see the real original sin of the Gnostics who saved the Dag Hammadi Scrolls and gave their lives protecting the Library of Alexandria in this. These people who were with the Cathars a millennium later say 'The original sin that separates us from God - is IGNORANCE!'

    Another culture that really worshipped this goddess at one time is the Greek or Hellenic culture of Dionysius and Aphrodite as we see a practice that was at work while Yahweh became the one and sole male god Jehovah and that development was not mentioned in BAR.

    "In Cyprus it appears that before marriage all women were formerly obliged by custom to prostitute themselves to strangers at the sanctuary of the goddess, whether she went by the name of Aphrodite, Astarte, or what not. Similar customs prevailed in many parts of Western Asia." (3)
    Casting aspersions on great thinkers like Augustine is easy and I don't want any readers to think I'm saying these things without basis in fact. We have his own book to work with in that regard. Here is a little from Augustine's autobiography called Confessions.

    "As literature, the Scriptures compared poorly with the polished prose of Cicero and he thought them fit only for the simple minded." That was when he was a Manichean before "the mercy of God had saved him from this evil." (4)
    Last edited by R_Baird; 12-04-2015 at 01:43 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Nanaimo
    Posts
    3,785
    I know the writings found in the deserts of Egypt and Palestine or Jordan are all important to the whole cultus of Judean/Christians and Islamists. Beyond that they were important to all people of Parthia and Rome at the time they were hidden so hegemonists in search of power might not find them - and it was a successful and thankful thing that they remained hidden. If Paul/Saul or his Roman masters had found them it would have been far easier for them to gain even greater power than they did (if that is possible). It is widely known that Paul was a leader in the stoning of St. Stephen but it is less known that he was behind the assassination attempt on James who was the leader of the Qumrunites we call Essenes. This James was almost certainly the older brother of Yeshua who people refer to by his titles Jesus (Iesa) and Christ (Christos or Messiah). These titles go way back and the Great Pyramid of Iesa (Brotherhood) is testament to that. There were so many messiahs in every century and still are!

    Was the fact that Rome was seeking to develop a way to enslave people in all nations and regions they conquered important? Was the fact that Paul was a Roman important? Would the immaculate conception such as had been used before with Plato going to be a hard sell if James is the older brother (Not a Virgin Mary, but someone worthy of respect who had experience), and his Christian leadership after Jesus was crucified was saying something other than what we now have and is known as Pauline Christianity? Yes, James and indeed all erudite people did not buy the 'only son of' some boogeyman concept. They knew all was "within" or I AM (YHVH) that these scrolls elucidate and demonstrate includes Buddhist and other Eastern thought.

    This link will take you to an official site telling officious truths.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...y/deadsea.html

    Not only was there no Diaspora in the time of Nebuchadnezzar as recent tablets found by archaeology prove; the Benjaminite satrap overlords are documented doing perverse things to the people of Israel in the Bible. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...20&version=CEB

    Why is it almost illegal and certainly career-threatening to suggest an earlier account of someone like the mythical (Title not person) Jesus. Why would a person suffer attacks on character including being bi-polar or an alcoholic AFTER saying things the paradigm wants out of the news?

    "The great trove of texts found after Israeli independence, however, was under Jordanian control, and no Jewish scholars were allowed on the official team of editors who had exclusive access to the manuscripts. After the 1967 war, all the scrolls came under Israeli control, but ownership is disputed to this day.

    Controversy erupted anew during the 1950s when John Allegro, a maverick member of the editorial team, claimed in a British radio broadcast that a Jewish sectarian leader, known as the Teacher of Righteousness, had anticipated Jesus Christ in uncanny ways. According to Allegro, the teacher was crucified and his followers "took down the broken body of their Master to stand guard over it until Judgment Day," when he would rise again. The other editors protested that they found nothing of the sort in the scrolls. Allegro later fully discredited himself by publishing "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross," in which he argued that Christianity was a fertility cult involving sacred mushrooms. {The origins of a lot of wisdom comes from sex like Bhakti, so to argue against his premise is to say there was no gnosis or 'wisdom' in Christianity, which I doubt.}

    In the 1980s, scholars grew impatient with the long delay in publishing the scrolls, which meant that access to them was severely restricted. That controversy came to a head in 1991 when the editor in chief, John Strugnell, was forced to resign after he was quoted in an Israeli newspaper as saying that Judaism was a horrible religion that ought not to exist. Strugnell, an alcoholic who also suffered from bipolar disorder, was not of sound mind when he gave the interview. He had a good record of working with Israeli scholars and was the first to include some of them on the editorial team, but his position was obviously untenable.

    The publication of the scrolls, however, remained a contentious issue, even when access to them was no longer restricted.

    The unauthorized publication of an important text called 4QMMT ("Some of the Works of the Law") by Hershel Shanks in Biblical Archaeology Review became the subject of a lawsuit by Elisha Qimron, one of the editors to whom the text had been assigned. An Israeli court ruled against Shanks, and the trial cost him more than $100,000."

    http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar...versy-20130310
    Last edited by R_Baird; 12-23-2015 at 06:34 AM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Nanaimo
    Posts
    3,785
    From this link. https://libcom.org/library/2-essenes-therapeutae-qumran Remember that Jesus and James were leaders and not followers as you read this. The end of days stuff is largely a means to galvanize sheeple, generally. I also could say that great adepts do not fear the end of physicality for reasons this author apparently does not know.

    "Until recent years our knowledge of religious communist groups in the classic period was quite limited. ..... The most information we have is about the Essenes, the communist religious cult or lay monastic movement amongst the Jews; but that amounts to little more than brief descriptions in Philo, Josephus, and Pliny. With the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the community at Qumran in the desert hills above the Dead Sea, which was almost certainly the same as Philo’s Essenes, we can form a pretty clear picture of the life of a communist religious sect around the beginning of the Christian era. From an anthropologist’s point of view the most outstanding characteristic of this life is that it was a highly ritualized return to the life of the primitive village community and was a conscious revolt against the life of the city, or even town, and the attendant priestly temple structure and militaristic kingship.

    On these brief materials provided by Pliny, Josephus, and Philo, with echoes but little augmentation in the Church fathers, an immense structure of speculation was raised, particularly in the nineteenth century, by writers influenced by the higher criticism of the Bible and by Liberal Protestantism. The Essenes were supposed to have been Buddhists or Magi or Pythagoreans or members of an occult, eremitical Egyptian cult. It was hypothesized that Jesus was an Essene; even more, John the Baptist. Since all three classical authors were commonly read by theologians and learned religious laymen from the Renaissance on, their picture of the Essenes’ rule of life probably had a considerable influence on the rule of life of the more literate, strict Pietist sects. In the nineteenth century, the most balanced speculation on the relations between the Essenes, John, Jesus, and the first Christians was Ernest Renan’s. His ideas were to have great influence on the picture of primitive Christianity held by most radical socialists after the publication of his Life of Jesus.

    In 1947 seven scrolls of leather were found by Bedouin shepherds at approximately the spot described by Pliny. In the course of the next ten years a dozen caves surrounding the ruins of a settlement on the Wadi Qumran produced scrolls and fragments in abundance — more than five hundred manuscripts — and the settlement itself was carefully excavated. The Essene community was removed from the realm of speculation and fantasy. The discoveries included large parts or fragments of almost all the books of the Old Testament and apocryphal and pseudepigraphic writings, commentaries, hymns, apocalyptic and prophetic writings peculiar to the sect, and an extensive and detailed Manual of Discipline or monastic rule. By and large the accounts of the three classic authors were substantiated. There are variations only in detail, with two important exceptions. First of all there are many skeletons of women in the Qumran cemetery. Either the sect was not celibate, or it was divided into a celibate order and an association of married laymen such as we still find in the Franciscans. Inside the community enclosure the archaeologists discovered large numbers of carefully buried jars filled with the bones of sheep, goats, and cattle, each animal buried individually. There can be little doubt that these are the remains of the sacrificial feasts of the community, so that Josephus’s statement is to be understood as meaning that the Essenes rejected the sacrificial cult of the temple at Jerusalem and carried on one of their own (as the Falasha of Ethiopia do today). This is important because it means that the Essene community did not consider itself just a stricter Jewish sect but a new Jerusalem which would replace the old.

    The scrolls and the excavations expand the picture of the community given by the classic authors in very specific ways, over and above minor disagreements. The community was organized according to the strictest order. At the top was the so-called Teacher of Righteousness, followed by the priests and Levites, and below them the rank and file, each of whom had his place in the elaborate hierarchical structure. In spite of this structure the community was a complete democracy. In theological matters the authority of the priests seems to have been absolute, but the governing council consisted of twelve laymen and three priests, patterned on the government of Israel in the Wilderness, and the decisions of this council were subject to the meeting of the entire community in which every man had a vote. The theology of the community was a kind of apocalypticism, millenarianism, chiliasm, a rigorously eschatological interpretation of life and history.

    Apocalyptic has been called spoiled prophecy. The prophetic books of the Old Testament envisage the fulfillment of the purpose of God in history in the normal development of this world. The apocalyptic writings of the Old and New Testaments and their respective apocryphal additions look forward to the end of history, the rule of this world, in cataclysm, and to the advent of a supermundane kingdom of God beyond history. Millenarianism is the belief in the advent of this kingdom as the fulfillment of time — the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 during which holiness is to be triumphant throughout the world, when Christ the anointed Messiah will reign on earth with his saints. ....

    In immediate expectation of the apocalypse great possessions, status, power, become meaningless, and the chiliastic, millenarian community practices a strict community of goods, the sharing of voluntary poverty. Labor is reduced to its simplest terms — to the agricultural labor of the early village community and its attendant necessary crafts, all made easier by the technology taken from the dominant — and doomed — society. These three characteristics of the Essene community at Qumran were certainly not original. Many aspects of their theology, the coming war of the Sons of Darkness and the Sons of Light, for instance, are to be found in Persian religion. But Qumran is now the community about which we know not just the most, but in fact a great deal. The existence of similar communities throughout the Near East around the time of the Christian era is still largely speculative. Whatever their antecedents, these outstanding characteristics of the Essenes were to remain the distinguishing marks of almost every communalist sect from then on, and were, in a secularized form, to be perpetuated in the revolutionary movements of the nineteenth century, utopian, communist, anarchist, and socialist.

    Philo of Alexandria, the Jewish neo-platonic (more or less) philosopher who wrote in the first decades of the Christian era, gives the earliest accounts of the Essenes in his book Quod Omnis Probis Liber Sit and in the Apologia pro Judaeis. The latter work is lost but the Essene passage is quoted by Eusebius of Caesarea. Philo says in the former:


    The Essenes are totally dedicated to the worship of God. They do not offer animal sacrifice. They flee the cities and live in villages. Mostly they work in the fields. Others practice peaceful crafts. They do not hoard money or buy and rent land. They live without goods or property. They never make weapons or any objects which might be turned to evil purpose. They engage in no commerce. They have no slaves and condemn slavery. They avoid metaphysics, logic, and all philosophy except ethics which they study in the divinely given ancestral laws of the Jews. Every seventh day they keep holy and do no work but spend their time in religious assemblies seated strictly according to their rank, and listen to the exposition of their sacred books explained according to the ancient symbolical system. They study piety, holiness, justice, the sacred law, and the rules of their order, all leading to the love of God, of virtue, and of men, to which ends their lives are completely devoted. They refuse to take oaths and never lie. They believe that God is the cause only of good, never of evil. They treat all men with equal kindness and live together in a communal way. No one man owns his house. Their homes are always open to visiting members. They keep one purse and one budget. They eat together in a common meal and take their clothes from a common store. They care for the sick, the young, and the aged.....

    Philo ends this account with four paragraphs of diatribe against women, marriage, and children which are usually assumed to reflect his own attitude, not that of the Essenes. Some paragraphs of his description apparently describe life in the communities of the order; others that of associates like Franciscan tertiaries who live in the world.

    In De Vita Contemplativa, which is doubtfully attributed to Philo, there occurs a description of an Egyptian community similar to the Essenes — the Therapeutae. They lived in Alexandria, each member in a separate hut, with a tiny chapel for prayer, something like the arrangement of the medieval Carthusians, and met at sunrise and sunset for community prayer, and once a day for a common meal"
    Last edited by R_Baird; 12-24-2015 at 07:26 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Nanaimo
    Posts
    3,785
    Jesus said (in saying 108 from the Gospel of Thomas):

    "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to that person."
    The 'hidden things' were not in his religion, they were in his heart. Those who would interpret for us would say they know what he meant. I say if they have lived his life and done what he did then they have a leg to stand on.

    I recommend reading The Gospel of Thomas by Howard Bloom. The codes and intellectual systems of the times Gnosticism developed are not covered well in this article but I agree the Nag Hammadi finds are more important spiritually than the Dead Sea Scrolls.

    "The Gnostic Apostle Thomas: "Twin" of Jesus

    Gospel of Thomas

    The Gnostic Apostle Thomas: Chapter 23

    One December day in 1945, far up the Nile Valley, two Egyptian peasants were looking for a local variety of crumbly nitrate rock used as fertilizer. Amid the scree at the foot of the cliff bordering the valley, they came across a large jar, about a meter tall, hidden by a boulder. Inside they found a collection of ancient leather-bound books or codices. The spot where the books were found is within a few miles of the site of an early monastery, established by the founder of Christian monasticism in Egypt, Pachomius. Nag Hammadi, a nearby village , has given this remarkable collection its name.

    The Find Near Nag Hammadi

    Mohammed Ali, one of the finders, wrapped the books in a tunic and carried them home on his camel. He was involved in a blood feud between clans; his father, a night watchman, had earlier killed an intruder in the fields he was guarding, and a kinsman of the dead man had killed Ali's father. And Mohammed Ali, with his brothers, had in turn hacked to death the murderer of their father, and had eaten his heart. {A common blood ritual amongst barbaric members of the Judaeo/Christian/Islamic cultus, it was brought to North America very early in the development of this cult by Rome.}

    Their victim's father was the local sheriff. He was an outsider in the neighborhood and unpopular among the local peasants, who refused to testify against the killers of his son. At the time of his literary find, however, Mohammed Ali was being closely watched by the police and his house was frequently searched for weapons. He decided the ancient books he had just uncovered would be safer with the local Coptic priest, whose brother-in-law, an itinerant teacher, took one book to Cairo and showed it to the authorities dealing with antiquities.

    For the next quarter of a century, the collection was scattered in various ways. The finders' mother used part of one codex as kindling for her cooking fire. Most books fell into the hands of opportunistic dealers. One important codex reached psychologist Carl Jung in Switzerland. The Egyptian government eventually gathered them all under one roof, in the Coptic Museum in Cairo. Rivalries among scholars of different nationalities, the French-British-Israeli invasion of Egypt after Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal, Nasser's determination to get rid of foreign cultural influences -- all combined to delay a cooperative approach to reproduction and translation of the codices. At last an international effort was organized under the auspices of UNESCO and Egypt and under the leadership of an American scholar, James Robinson. The team made facsimile copies of the texts generally available to scholars. Translations into modern languages began to appear. It was a find more important, for students of the New Testament, than the much better known ones at Qumran in Palestine, the so-called Dead Sea Scrolls.

    The Nag Hammadi Library consists of fifty-two texts or "tractates" written in Coptic on papyrus and gathered in thirteen volumes, twelve of which have separate leather bindings. Forty of the texts had previously been unknown to modern scholars. Most of the writings are of a Gnostic character. Scraps of paper found in the binding of eight codices bear dates indicating that the books were made in the mid-fourth century, and at least one of these clearly appears to have come from a monastery. Efforts to date the books more precisely continue. In general, it can be said the collection dates from about the middle of the fourth century. The Coptic texts could be many years earlier and the originals (probably written in Greek or Aramaic) from which the Coptic translations were made could have been still earlier.

    The origin of the collection remains to some extent speculative, but the general setting can be reconstructed with considerable confidence. Theodosius, the Roman emperor in Constantinople late in the fourth century, was determined to stamp out paganism and Christian groups that were held by the bishops then dominant to be heretical. Christians, long the victims of persecution, were now at the other end of the stick. It was now the policy of the churches enjoying imperial protection to destroy writings not consistent with their own views.

    Toward the end of the century, Alexandria became a particular target of heresy-hunters' zeal. (Their main concern at the time was the Arian heresy, which held that Jesus, although divine, was not equal with the Father). About the year 391 Roman soldiers destroyed the temple of Serapis in Alexandria. They pillaged and burned, once more, the famous Alexandrian library. In the year 367 the Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria, in his annual Easter letter to his churches, condemned heretics and their "apocryphal books to which they attribute antiquity and give the name of saints." He listed the books that would form the New Testament canon: "In these books alone the teaching of piety is proclaimed. Let no one add or subtract from them." The head of the Pachomian monasteries had the letter translated into Coptic.

    This was the century when Epiphanius said he had driven eighty libertine Gnostics out of Alexandria. And in the same or following century, an Egyptian Christian named Shenute warned against an apocryphal gospel: "There are some who want to confound you, changing the gospel of Christ . . . . He who says 'I know' because he reads apocryphal books, is greatly ignorant."

    We can suppose that monks of a Gnostic bent, far up the Nile, would take steps to save their own libraries from heresy-hunters. In any event, some group hid an impressive collection of books, mainly Gnostic in character, in a large jar and placed it in a cave in a cliffside -- probably a pharaoh's tomb that had been looted long before. There it reposed for sixteen centuries until discovered by the Ali brothers. Some students of these matters, assuming that Pachomian monasteries were steadfastly orthodox, suggest that monks were getting rid of heretical works by burying them. Leather-bound codices, however, were rare and precious at the time these were hidden and destruction by burning or other means, not preservation by concealment, was the usual way of dealing with writings deemed unacceptable. To bury was to save.

    cont'd
    Last edited by R_Baird; 12-27-2015 at 05:59 PM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Nanaimo
    Posts
    3,785
    Up to the time of the find at Nag Hammadi most of what was known about the various Gnostic sects had come from their enemies, from early church fathers who wanted to stamp out what they regarded as dangerous and threatening aberrations from their views of what constituted true Christianity. Most writings of the Gnostics themselves had been destroyed or lost. Now and then a fragment would surface, but for the most part scholars trying to reconstruct Gnostic beliefs and texts had to rely on accounts given by Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Epiphanius, and other early church fathers hostile to the Gnostic systems that they were describing.

    The Nag Hammadi library marks a dramatic change. It brings a relatively huge addition to the "fragments of a faith forgotten," as the sparse Gnostic materials earlier available have been called. The collection will provide grist for scholarly mills for generations to come. Within a few decades of the discovery a large body of scholarly literature emerged, and it grows apace.

    Much of the specialized study of Gnosticism has been concerned with trying to find the movement's origins, with emphasis on the interrelationships of texts that seem to tie the movement to various trends and known writings, or genres of writings, in Judaism, Hellenistic philosophy, mystery religions, early Christianity, Greco-Egyptian religious movements, the religions of India, and Persian Zoroastrianism.

    Some scholars find roots of Gnosticism earlier than the time of Christ, some think the movement arose in the first century A.D., some later. All can agree that the peak period of its Christian variety came in the second and third centuries.

    Gospel of Thomas

    The Gospel of Thomas (to which I have referred only glancingly earlier in these pages) is one of the most striking of the documents found at Nag Hammadi. Many scholars date its origins to about the middle of the second century; others would date it much earlier, perhaps to the middle or late first century. (We will want, later, to explore this difference.) The book is not, in the familiar sense of biblical gospel, a narrative of the life and passion of Jesus as well as a record of his teachings. Rather, it is a collection of logia or sayings -- aphorisms, words of wisdom, proverbs, parables -- purportedly recorded by his closest disciple and confidant, Thomas. In many cases they are close to the sayings attributed to him in the canonical gospels, but often tantalizingly different in wording and nuance from them. Many are entirely different from anything found in the canon.

    The only connection among the Sayings, at first glance, is that one often has a catch word found in the preceding one. (For example, the term "little children" may be repeated from one Saying to the next.) Perhaps this chain was used as an aid to memory, just as in ordinary conversation one topic leads to another ("That reminds me . . ."). If the Gospel is read as a Christian Gnostic document, Gnostic motifs and themes will be readily recognized.

    About half of the sayings, as already noted, have no parallels in the New Testament, and several of these are at the heart of the mystical element in the Thomas literature. Scholars' classifications vary. Hans Jonas identified about 35 Sayings of the 114 as having no counterpart in the New Testament, and about 25 others as only "faint echoes" of canonical sayings. Twenty or more are almost identical, and about 30 loosely parallel, to New Testament material.

    The Coptic version of the Gospel of Thomas is apparently a translation from the Greek; some fragments of a version in that language, dating to about A.D. 200, were discovered in Egypt early in the twentieth century. Some scholars think that these Sayings were originally written in Syriac, a dialect of the Aramaic that was the language of Jesus and his followers. The fascinating possibility thus arises that the Sayings are closer to the words originally ascribed to him than those, translated into Greek, that are found in the canonical New Testament gospels.

    In other words, they may be even older than, or at least as old as, the source of Jesus-sayings known to scholars as "Q" ( for Quelle , or Source, in German), on which Matthew and Luke are believed to have drawn to supplement those found in Mark . And some of the Sayings have parallels in John , whose author did not draw on Q. (Q has never been found as a separate corpus of written sayings. Scholars have deduced its existence and contents, as a supposed collection of Jesus-sayings preserved in early oral tradition, from the available texts of the synoptic gospels -- Mark, Matthew , and Luke .)"



    http://gnosis.org/thomasbook/ch23.html

    In this link to a book addressing gnosis and apocryphal books we have an Appendix with many things which give insight to prior beliefs upon which much has been built into Christianity. The Romans did not have far to go in creating new myths all they had to do was take the extreme nonsense of less than sane practitioners of many systems. They could have chosen better things but they needed people to live in fear, and to pay them money for protecting their souls.

    https://books.google.ca/books?id=swL...tic%22&f=false

    Jung can also be used to gain further insight but be careful of any quotes by those who say they take his full understanding to heart and remember the Dag Hammadi finds were Christianized which actually means it was Roman propaganda, and not fully translated in his era. http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/spirituality/jung.htm

    " "A parallel form of alchemy also developed in the East, in which the liberation of the 'true man' from within was sought in forms of Indian yoga and Chinese Taoism....

    "For as science freed itself of religion in an Age of Enlightenment and work in the laboratory finally shed its arcane symbolisms... so the philosophical side of the work forfeit the creative medium - the living soul - of its projections only to become the inanimate preserve of secret societies such as the Rosicrucians....

    "Jung showed that the problem... of the body in general developed in Western alchemy as a compensatory undercurrent to the Christian conflict between the opposites, particularly the moral opposites of good and evil, which ever since the first day of Creation had been rent apart into upper and lower worlds. ... Alchemy represented the search for the divine spark of God's reflection in the darkness of the lower world, under the motto ascribed in antiquity to Hermes Trismegistus; 'as Above, so Below'....

    "As the power of faith upheld by the Church waned, it was left to psychology to uncover the source of this sickness in modern man, a sickness and distress which Jung argued can only be cured through greater knowledge and individual experience....

    "The opus of alchemy was essentially concerned with the union of opposites....

    "The stone, the lumen novum, arising from the conjunction of the reconciled opposites Sol et Luna was personified as the rounded, bisexual Anthropos and proclaimed... the saviour of the macrocosm and counterpart to Christ.... Because the experience of wholeness re-connects the individual with the universal life of the collective unconscious, Jung called the mandala 'a window on eternity', a moment of 'redemption' transcending the ego-personality as the whole transcends the part." 18

    Jung on Active Imagination: "Brief Extract from Analytical Psychology : its Theory and Practice The Tavistock Lectures (1935)"

    On the nature of tao - From Jung's Collected Works 6 Psychological Types (1921): "This psychological attitude is...an essential condition for obtaining the kingdom of heaven, and this in its turn - all rational interpretations notwithstanding - is the central, irrational symbol whence the redeeming effect comes. The Christian symbol merely has a more social character than the related conceptions of the East....

    "According to the central concepts of Taoism, tao is divided into a fundamental pair of opposites, yang and yin. Yang signifies warmth, light, maleness; yin is cold, darkness, femaleness. Yang is also heaven, yin earth. From the yang force arises shen, the celestial portion of the human soul, and from the yin force comes kwei, the earthly part....

    "As a microcosm, man is reconciler of the opposites, Heaven, man, and earth form the three chief elements of the world.... Man is a microcosm uniting the world opposites is the equivalent of an irrational symbol that unites the psychological opposites.... The existence of two mutually antagonistic tendencies, both striving to drag man into extreme attitudes and entangle him in the world, whither on the material or spiritual level, sets him at variance with himself and accordingly demands the existence of a counterweight....

    "The aim of Taoist ethics, then, is to find deliverance from the cosmic tension of opposites by a return to Tao.""


    Unity in Yoga (one definition is union) and joining the yin and yang to get the ONE is a simple way to understanding all religious and philosophical debate. Eliade and Jung had 'words' over this and we have those letters here already.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-16-2016 at 12:14 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Nanaimo
    Posts
    3,785
    It is fair to call any wise person an ecumenicist and humanist. The Gnostic revivalists are ecumenical but there are some 'elements' of apocalypse thinking and having to be something before being accepted into a hereafter of purpose. I prefer to think the wise people like Carl Jung would say we all are perfecti (As the Cathars did) if we work at it, and all are worthy of acceptance without some test for having sinned. So when I see Jung being termed a Gnostic I agree and disagree. http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic4.htm

    "The "Lost Gospels" refer to the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library, both discovered in the 1940s. The Nag Hammadi Library consists of writings found by two peasants who unearthed clay jars in 1945 in upper Egypt. These did not appear in English for 32 years, because the right to publish was contended by scholars, politicians, and antique dealers. The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in clay jars in Palestine by a goatherder in 1947, weathered similar storms. The first team of analysts were mostly Christian clergy, who weren't anxious to share material that frightened church leaders. As Dr. Hoeller shows, they rightly feared the documents would reveal information that might detract from unique claims of Christianity. Indeed, the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi Library both contradict and complement accepted tenets of the Old and New Testaments.

    As to the connection with Jung, Dr. Hoeller states, "Jung knew that the one and only tradition associated with Christianity that regarded the human psyche as the container of the divine-human encounter was that of the Gnostics of the the first three centuries of our era. For this reason he called for a renewed appreciation of this ancient tradition, and particularly for a return to the Gnostic sense of God as an inner directing and transforming presence." Dr. Hoeller goes on in his preface, "His sympathetic insight into the myths, symbols, and metaphors of the Gnostics, whom by his own admission he regarded as long-lost friends, continues as the brightest beacon of our day...""


    http://www.amazon.com/dp/0835606465/...2Fgnostic4.htm

    Acharya S. is a doctor of Divinity or religious studies whose work I find honest and fair.

    http://freethoughtnation.com/dead-se...le-unoriginal/

    One of my good accounts in Los Angeles was the colleges at Claremont. Ms. Dawson-Gonzales was the bookstore manager and she and I often chatted about many things. Here we have a source on scrolls I consider to be more important than the Dead Sea Scrolls as far as religion is concerned, Marvin Meyer and other scholars at Claremont have done good work shedding light on a Jesus with something we can learn from. I suppose this source deserves a thread of it's own.

    "The Gnostic Bible, edited by Barnstone and Meyer
    by Marvin Meyer

    Reproduced by permission from:
    Willis Barnstone & Marvin Meyer, The Gnostic Bible, (Shambalah, 2003), pp. 1-11.

    ___________________________




    Know what is in front of your face
    and what is hidden from you
    will be disclosed.

    – Gospel of Thomas



    The gnostics were religious mystics who proclaimed gnosis, knowledge, as the way of salvation. To know oneself truly allowed gnostic men and women to know god directly, without any need for the mediation of rabbis, priests, bishops, imams, or other religious officials. Religious officials, who were not pleased with such freedom and independence, condemned the gnostics as heretical and a threat to the well-being and good order of organized religion. Heresiologists—heresy hunters of a bygone age who busied themselves exposing people judged dangerous to the Christian masses—fulminated against what they maintained was the falsehood of the gnostics. Nonetheless, from the challenge of this perceived threat came much of the theological reflection that has characterized the intellectual history of the Christian church.

    The historical roots of the gnostics reach back into the time of the Greeks, Romans, and Second Temple Jews. Some gnostics were Jewish, others Greco-Roman, and many were Christian. There were Mandaean gnostics from Iraq and Iran; Manichaeans from Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, and all the way to China; Islamic gnostics in the Muslim world; and Cathars in western Europe. The heyday of their influence extends from the second century CE through the next several centuries. Their influence and their presence, some say, continue to the present day."


    http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-14-2016 at 09:21 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Nanaimo
    Posts
    3,785
    Continuing research on the scrolls seems to be producing some fragments which tell us about a myth derived from Gilgamesh myths before them. I would be surprised if more such things are not found in the books of these people who also created a leather scroll proven not to be of the era of Abraham who was purported to be it's author.

    Among many other points you will see in what follows is the chronology from Adam through the whole of human history until the Gospels of Rome were written.

    It seems the carbon dating disputes about Trojan War era pottery and the book by Homer are being resolved. It really does not matter. The Dardanelles and the DNN or Danaus who settled Greece or the whole region is what matters. They were certainly in Troy under whatever name we choose to give in in many different eras we now choose to divide history into. There is a similar dating issue with the influence of certain foreigners (Hyksos) in Egypt. You must know it is all guesswork by now. If you do not stand back and look at the longer term influence of various families and peoples like the Sea Peoples all you will get, is a pain in various regions on the map and in your body. This extensive scholarship says the Exodus is tied in with the Hyksos expulsion from Egypt. I agree but I also say these expulsions including the later Diaspora include only those who were not needed to manage the territory they were being thrown out from. In my way of thinking it is more properly called a movement of assets to expand the real control over a larger territory no matter what we call the nation or what propaganda the Pharaoh may cause to be written.

    Think about it (Without the recent clay tablets found in Iraq which confirm my theory years after I wrote it.) would you just throw them out to come back stronger than before? If you had them in this position would you not take their wealth and eliminate them - as has been done with lesser Jews we call Ashkenazi? But remember the authors of the Bible who said we are all descended from Adam and Eve did not know evolution and the million or more years civilized and thinking people have lived on Earth. But still academia has these Bible Narratives to teach as they were taught and so the story stays despite the facts.

    "4Q559 Biblical Chronology

    There are five fragments from the Dead Sea Scrolls that list a chronology. Fragments two and three go from Abraham to Aaron with the formula X was Y years old when he begot Z which says:

    Abraham was 99 years old when he begot Isaac. Isaac was 60 years old when he begot Jacob. Jacob was 65 years old when he begot Levi. Levi was 34 years old when he begot Qahat. Qahat was 29 years old when he begot Amram. Amram was 110 years old when he begot Aaron (Martinez 1996, 228).

    When these numbers are all tallied from the birth of Isaac to Aaron there are 298 years. At least 80 years need to be added to get to the Exodus, but this is only 378 years. This may indicate that Aaron was 22 years older than Moses unless the 400 years are calculated from the promise to Abraham. In Fragment 4 Joshua is said to be 35 years in Gilgal and in Timnath Serah for 20 years (Martinez 1996, 288). Joshua died when he was 110 years old of which forty years were spent in the wilderness. This would make Joshua 15 years old when he left Egypt.

    4Q180-1 Ages of the World

    These fragments deal with predestination that God from the very beginning has foreordained history (Wise, Abegg, & Cook 1996, 238). Ten generations were decreed from Shem to Abraham.

    Fragment one of 4Q180 says:

    Interpretation concerning the ages which God has made: An age to achieve [all that there is] and all that will be. Before creating them he determined their operations [according to the precise sequence of the ages,] one age after another age. And this is engraved on the [heavenly] tablets [for the sons of men,] [for] /all/ the ages of their dominion. This is the sequence of the so[ns of Noah, from Shem to Abraham,] [until he sired Isaac; the ten generations] (Martinez 1992, 211-12).

    In Luke chapter three there are 11 generations from Shem to Abraham because "Cainan" is included in the LXX, but not in the Masoritic text.

    This fragment, 4Q180, follows the MT, and not the LXX. Josephus also says that Abraham is the tenth from Noah, and Noah is the tenth from Adam (1830, 31; Antiquities of the Jews Book I.7.5). Enoch is called the 7th from Adam in Jude 14 which follows this same numbering pattern. Ten is a nice round number for genealogies, as is the 3 groups of 14 names of Matthew's genealogy in chapter one which suggests an edited version. It is critical in understanding ancient chronology that names are added and omitted from genealogies in order to be symmetrical (Wilson 1977)."


    http://www.bibleandscience.com/archa...exodusdate.htm

    Recall that we also have archaeological proof from Hittite or Anatolian digs which shows the propaganda of people with the name Ramses is just that - lies. And we have Nat Geo from this era in an article by Rick Gore quoting the likes of Lord Renfrew saying all this stuff is not real. Then we have Jewish Garrisons which remained in Egypt on a very defendable island called Elephantine and it is not just me who knows these things. I have quoted Ingersoll and others from over the last two centuries - starting with Flinders-Petrie, I did not need Nat Geo to tell me what was already obvious.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Nanaimo
    Posts
    3,785
    How much of the Bible was found in Qumran - not any, all but Ester, were they all canonized - why not? What about the Gospels - did the older brother of Jesus (Yeshua) want any of that dirt in the minds of his flock? Well there are some things related to the Bible that were worth protecting and kept in this sacred library. Browse for a minute or two and ask those questions.

    Then you can look up the Book of Enoch and see so many Christian promoters of Profit (Eliz. Clare included). But maybe you want to read it yourself with so many flakes and utter deviates speaking out against it.

    "What is the Book of Enoch?


    The Book of Enoch is considered to have been written by Enoch, the seventh from Adam. It is considered an apocryphal book as well as a part of the Pseudepigrapha (literally means “falsely ascribed” is a collection of works supposedly written by a biblical character), although it is not a part of the canonical Apocrypha.

    Once considered to be of Christian origin because of its obvious references to Christ, ten fragments of The Book of Enoch have been found at Qumran in the Dead Sea Scrolls, it is known to have existed in its present form since at least the 2nd Century BC.

    The book was believed to have been composed by Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah. Most critics and scholars believe it was begun in the second century BC and was a collection of works that includes writings for the first century BC as well. Some believe it contains the actual words of Enoch and that it was handed down through the ages. There is no real way to know for certain if that is so. The only thing we know for certain is that fragments of the book date back to the 2nd century BC.

    It is generally believed that the Apostles and the writers of the New Testament were fully aware of the Book of Enoch also called 1 Enoch. In fact, it is directly quoted in the Bible:

    Jude 1:14-15 “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, {15} To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him”"


    http://book-ofenoch.com/
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-21-2016 at 12:38 AM.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •