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Thread: Gnostics

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    This post from the thread de-ciphering Masonry might deserve some response or de-construction.

    This little adventure starts with Wikipedia quoting Homer and a quote which is full of code. Homer, Hesiod and Orpheus are descended from Kapnobatai bards with Orpheus being most bardic of them. Hesiod is said to be bardic but I am not sure.

    There was a Harvard professor who went to Yugoslavia and northern Macedonia about 1920 who wrote a book I quote in my books. Unfortunately I do not have his name in my not-so-steel trap mind. He documented how accurate the stories are (were) compared to other history and propaganda.

    "The Odyssey describes Ogygia as follows:

    ...and he (Hermes) {Hermetics and alchemy} found her within {The soul or feminine intuition}. A great fire {The alchemical agent - see Bronowski chatting with Aldous Huxley in Ascent of Man} was burning in the hearth, and from afar over the isle there was a fragrance of cleft cedar and juniper {Here starts tree Ogham and a possible medicinal tincture recipe}as they burned. But she within was singing with a sweet voice {Mantra and harmonics} as she went to and fro before the loom, weaving with a golden shuttle. Round about the cave {The meanings are many and part of why idiots say alchemists hung out in caves} grew a luxuriant wood, alder and poplar and sweet-smelling cypress {Is this available in Ireland or Iceland where Plutarch places Ogygia?}, wherein birds {BRDs - language} long of wing {Could also be long winded} were wont to nest, owls and falcons and sea-crows with chattering tongues {Confirmation of many alphabets drawn from the Langue D'Oc or Alchemy}, who ply their business on the sea. {A clear reference in almost no code whatsoever to the Phoenician Sea Peoples} And right there about the hollow cave ran trailing a garden vine, in pride of its prime, richly laden with clusters. {Each colony with a different alphabet and source of wealth or wisdom} And fountains four in a row {The four primary forces in all disciplines including lattices studied on Malta and plaids Elizabeth Wayland-Barber studied before going to Urumchi to continue connecting similar dots} were flowing with bright water hard by one another, turned one this way, one that. {Many possible sources of wisdom as seen in Jesus drinking and sharing in The Gospel of Thomas I quoted here for Artful who called it New Age nonsense.} And round about soft meadows of violets {Key scent in astral travels and Isis meditations} and parsley were blooming {A conclusion}... [2]"

    Clues which come via Bibliomancy or "astral and dimensional means" must be verified through other solid sources unfortunately the great chronicler of pre-Hellenizing Empire and Neo-platonism named Poseidonius was a target for total eradication and we only have quotes from Herodotus and others to glimpse what actually once was written. For me the Green Language codes only help give clues.

    "All things come out of the one and the one out of all things." - Heraclitus

    One of my good accounts in Los Angeles was the colleges at Claremont. Ms. Dawson-Gonzales was the bookstore manager and she and I often chatted about many things. Here we have a source on scrolls I consider to be more important than the Dead Sea Scrolls as far as religion is concerned, Marvin Meyer and other scholars at Claremont have done good work shedding light on a Jesus with something we can learn from. I suppose this source deserves a thread of it's own.

    "The Gnostic Bible, edited by Barnstone and Meyer
    by Marvin Meyer

    Reproduced by permission from:
    Willis Barnstone & Marvin Meyer, The Gnostic Bible, (Shambalah, 2003), pp. 1-11.


    Know what is in front of your face
    and what is hidden from you
    will be disclosed.

    – Gospel of Thomas

    The gnostics were religious mystics who proclaimed gnosis, knowledge, as the way of salvation. To know oneself truly allowed gnostic men and women to know god directly, without any need for the mediation of rabbis, priests, bishops, imams, or other religious officials. Religious officials, who were not pleased with such freedom and independence, condemned the gnostics as heretical and a threat to the well-being and good order of organized religion. Heresiologists—heresy hunters of a bygone age who busied themselves exposing people judged dangerous to the Christian masses—fulminated against what they maintained was the falsehood of the gnostics. Nonetheless, from the challenge of this perceived threat came much of the theological reflection that has characterized the intellectual history of the Christian church.

    The historical roots of the gnostics reach back into the time of the Greeks, Romans, and Second Temple Jews. Some gnostics were Jewish, others Greco-Roman, and many were Christian. There were Mandaean gnostics from Iraq and Iran; Manichaeans from Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, and all the way to China; Islamic gnostics in the Muslim world; and Cathars in western Europe. The heyday of their influence extends from the second century CE through the next several centuries. Their influence and their presence, some say, continue to the present day."
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-14-2016 at 09:09 AM. Reason: add color

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Please read the first two posts of this thread finishing with my friend Philip Gardiner's book Gnosis. I dare say a thread titled The Cross - borrowed technology would raise some eyebrows in various circles.

    I find it especially repulsive that you can get a Ph. D. in Philosophy for addressing Augustine in a conventional manner.

    He had been a follower of Mani and if he had not sold out we might never have been subjected to such deceit and terror. Mani wanted ecumenicism!

    “For the thing itself which is now called the Christian religion, was known to the ancients, and was not wanting at any time from the beginning of the human race until the time that Christ came in the flesh, from whence the true religion, that had existed previously, began to be called Christian, and this in our day is the Christian religion, not as having been wanting in former times, but as having in later times received the name”. - Saint Augustine
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-29-2016 at 05:20 AM.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Dear Sal

    Gnostic Bishop has run afoul of the other self-proclaimed Gnostic. Of course I agree with GB on the matters of Gnostics not believing their myths and of Romans writing many more. I especially liked how he responded with something like this.

    Stop crying like a baby and go home to beat your wife like all those in your cult.

    You might like this long story of the various possibible (This was a typo but then I wonder of it is Freudian. LOL) mothers of the mythical Jesus which were being created to counter the Roman fiction.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 12-10-2015 at 12:54 PM.

  4. #14
    Thanks for the link!

    The Storie of Asneth: Introduction
    by: Russell A. Peck (Editor)
    from: Heroic Women from the Old Testament in Middle English Verse 1991
    Publisher Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan
    Publisher Name: Medieval Institute Publications
    Publication Date: 1991

    Anyone reading this please note a copy of the details for the manuscript, Ellesmere 26.A.13 containing The Middle English Storie of Asneth location - for viewing is at The Regents of the University of California.
    To view some of the images, Digital Scriptorium Huntington Catalog Database

    * An original Latin romance of Joseph and Aseneth found in two Cambridge manuscripts, Corpus Christi 424 and Corpus Christi 288 from Christ Church, Canterbury.

    From the The Storie of Asneth: Introduction by: Russell A. Peck (Editor)

    This narrative tells of Jesus eating ears of corn during the flight into Egypt, a passage that suggests a pleasant inverse typology of the Joseph-Asneth narrative where, instead of Joseph as the Christ figure who supplies grain to Israel, Jesus is a Joseph figure going to Egypt to find grain.
    Further details located at The Aseneth Home Page by Dr Mark Goodacre Duke University in connection with a University of Birmingham course focusing on Joseph and Aseneth.

    Welcome to The Aseneth Home Page, the web site devoted to Joseph and Aseneth, a Pseudepigraphical tale told about the Biblical Patriarch Joseph and his Egyptian wife Aseneth. You will find here an introduction, translation, bibliography and links. The site was created in 1999 to coincide with a University of Birmingham course. It was last updated in October 2013 to include links to several newly available texts and translations.
    Some brief comments from The Storie of Asneth: Introduction

    The origins of this manuscript go back into the Lynne family daughters of Alice and William (a wool merchant and grocer of London), Margaret and Beatrice.
    Beatrice married Avery Cornburgh (yoman of the Kynges chaumbre)
    Margaret married John Shirley (amanuensis, publisher, book dealer, literary gossip, and founder of England's first important lending library)
    Note there is also a suggusted connection to (lifetime, childhood friend) Geoffrey Chaucer and John Lydgate.

    One might wonder why such a book was "gifted" to two females, if unaware that ladies use to gather in what today is known as "book clubs" and had libraries of their own to share within their circle of friends.

    Here again we find the names of more ladies inscribed in the book
    Elizabeth Gaynesford married Nicholas Gaynsford (Usher to the Chamber of Edward IV and Queen, Elizabeth Woodville)
    Anne Schyrley
    Margery Hungerford
    the Coton's and Francis families

    Another manuscript that pops up is Findern Manuscript. Although not found the list of names of the females suggested to be located in the side margins, this appears to be an interesting review of the Thisbe Out of Context: Chaucer's Female Readers and the Findern Manuscript by Kara A. Doyle, which again examines women's knowledge of literature along with their lively interpretations/debate/etc on women's roles, etc.

    Most recently, two scholars, Carol Meale and Nicola McDonald, have drawn conclusions from the contents of the Findern MS about women's reactions to the Legend of Good Women. McDonald suggests that the women in Chaucer's contemporary audience, the noblewomen of the Ricardian court, were sophisticated readers accustomed to the conventions of debate poetry and the role-playing involved in courtly pastimes, but that the fifteenth-century provincial women who read the Findern MS, isolated from this "ludic" atmosphere and lacking in such sophistication, would not have understood or appreciated Chaucer's ironies. For Meale, similarly, the insertion of the Legend of Thisbe into the Findern MS indicates that some readers may have been "underplaying the controversial and dialogic aspect" of Chaucer's Legend of Good Women and interpreting Thisbe's story "divorced from its narrative frame . . . simply as a further expression of the vicissitudes suffered by loving women." Both scholars conclude that "provincial" fifteenth-century women were not in a position to appreciate Chaucer's ambiguous relation to and humorous commentary on the discourses of fin' amors and medieval misogyny.

    The contents of the Findern MS -- the context in which Thisbe's story was placed -- suggest otherwise. The selection and juxtaposition of texts in several quires of this manuscript reveal a fifteenth-century female reading community familiar with the "ludic" aspect of late fourteenth-century literature: that is, its humorous give-and-take in debates about the value of service in love, about misogynist views of women, and about the degree to which women, in particular, should take the game of love seriously. The Findern MS texts that allude to this latter debate construct the sort of sophisticated relationship Chaucer himself anticipated between the female reader and male fin' amors discourse, in which the love object's traditional pose of Daungier metamorphoses into a female hermeneutic of detachment and skepticism. In the light of these patterns, the Legend of Thisbe's place in the manuscript becomes clearer. This context suggests that, to the female interpretive community that created the Findern MS, there were more ways of reading Thisbe than as simply a victim -- and that there is more to Chaucer's Legend of Good Women than irony.
    Even Wikipedia acknowledges, Findern Manuscript

    The Findern Manuscript (CUL MS Ff.1.6) is a paper codex written entirely in Middle English and compiled in the fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries by a series of gentry who were neighbors in the countryside of Derbyshire. A list of its major texts creates a “greatest hits” of fourteenth-century secular love literature; however the volume also contains around two dozen anonymous lyrics, which have been added in the blank spaces left at the bottoms of pages and the ends of quires. There are several names and scribal signatures written into the book, including the names of five women
    Thus, one should not be so quick to assume that such books were taken as examples of a women's role of piety as summarized in an essay written in 1999 by Moira Forbes, Ideal Man versus Ideal Woman in Joseph and Aseneth found in the link above based on a course from University of Birmingham.

    ..... has disturbing implications for women; that they are incapable of being saved as they are but have to rely upon a man for their salvation. This in turn implies that women are second class people and are somehow more sinful than men.

    In Joseph and Aseneth the author ensures that the ideal man will always win, for no matter what she might gain a woman loses her independence, having to depend upon a man to become the ideal woman.
    Obviously, one may have to read and study more on this subject/story to grasp the significance that Aseneth appears obedient she is equally independent and intelligent when taking in the context of the "Pauline sense of the odor of piety" among other references and details that would lead to other subject matters.


    The point is not simply that she is obedient, but that her obedience gives her privileges which she recognizes and claims, privileges which extend not simply to his feet, but to his soul. He may get her when he marries, but she gets him too. He is hers - ``thi soule ys my soule: thu are thn myn owen fere,'' which implies, in effect, ``you are my rib.''
    For some ladies

    Its plot is thrilling, high-minded and romantic, a story that a young girl would respond to and admire.
    Of yeah, since this is a Gnostic thread, will leave with one final quote.

    (7) Who wrote Aseneth?

    Aseneth is an anonymous work and we have little idea of its origin. We do not even know where it was written. Indeed, we cannot even be sure whether we should think of Aseneth as a Jewish or a Christian book (or neither). Most scholarship this century has taken the work to be Jewish, but again Ross Kraemer has challenged the consensus and has argued that it may well have been composed by a Christian (or Christians), tracing connections with works like Acts of Thomas.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Dear Sal

    Excellent forensics - you know women would let men think they were as dumb as the men were. Oh wait - that is still true.

    There likely were many Josephs and I know there were many people with the title Jesus so although you could be correct to assume this is a Gnostic story it probably is based on an earlier template or myth.

    My Biblical Criticism and History Forum deserves to see this. They will appreciate the antiquity of the original and the recent confirmations plus your comments. So far it appears only a few of the usual types are snipping at me. If you don't wish to join - can I post this?

  6. #16
    Feel free to re-post - no plans to join.


    I threw the last bit about Thomas - as merely a suggestion/after-thought
    Did not go into any further research.
    Yet, there is usually a story built upon a story built upon yet another.
    So, who knows.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    I introduced it there under the thread Mary and Hiram (dealing with codes and myths or memes) as follows.

    Adding to the work of Mary Rose D'Angelo in Vatican II we see some stories of women had to be covered over or made less obvious. The Vatican II research sought to place women in an important position and undo what has been done to women in the horror show called religious and uplifting. I think Vatican II was even open to Teilhardism as the present Pope is - but in between Teilhard was treated most foul in places like the Catholic Encyclopedia.

    No truly adept or spiritual person can diminish women and make that lack of appreciation for our sisters and mothers a central part of any advanced system of thought. But that does not stop deviates from fomenting lies as Augustine certainly did. Equality (Egalite), Liberte (Liberty or Freedom) et Fraternite (Brotherhood) should be a revived cry for change. Alienation and alien intervention theories born in religion should be put on the trash heap and not promoted all over the media. Yes, there are extraterrestrial advanced lifeforms of innumerable species but there is nothing done on Earth which man did not develop.

    What follows is an old story which may even pre-date what Christianity thinks is it's roots. Like Beowulf or Thoth we may never know how important women were before man began to need to control them, and write words put in the mouths of g-ds to make a new order which has been a scourge on humanity. My fellow researcher named Sal put the following together.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 10-31-2015 at 04:24 PM.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    In a discourse on Mark in the Bible, we have some good insights addressing a pre-existent Messiah but that does not mean the Gnostics were it's origin. Many people think there is no real merit in a forensic or even cursory examination of the origins of almost every people, culture and belief they think they are part of - and KNOW! Who got them to close their minds and why does it continue? Could the origin of such myopia and continuing propaganda have something to do with the advent of Empires and misogyny? It certainly has much to do with ignorance which many seekers of gnosis (means wisdom - not salvation - those Gnostics selling Salvation are Roman Empire agents) tell us is the main cause of all problems - or is the true Original Sin. I thank g-d that the Gnostics saved some (few) of the books once maintaining insights to prior cultures which threatened so many despots. All the attacks on Alexandria's great repository of knowledge, are just a small part of a far larger program employing bounties, proscriptions and adherence to the new paradigm - still existing..

    "Giuseppe » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:48 am

    It's sufficient to define a new concept of Messiah, in Mark, to have this claim false:

    As admirable as it might be to be to think of oneself as the Messiah, his death demonstrated that the claim was false as he himself was so pathetically forced to realize.

    But you are correct that the Gospel genre is tragedy, since only a tragedy can better represent a basic contradiction between a god that comes down on Judea and the death of that god.

    I remember by memory the words of a 'new age' Gnostic guru, that were more or less these: when the divine Revealer arrives, what for us is ''white'' for him is ''black'', and what for us is ''day'' for him is ''night'', and what for us is ''light'', for him is ''dark'', and what for us is ''paradise'' for him is ''hell'', and so on. An implicit tragic dualism is inevitably the result, even more so if the Revealer's hidden goal is paradoxically the death.

    I think that the raising of these antitheses, as mere side effects of a pre-existent god descending on earth, would be necessary to describe the arrival of a god on Judaea and would be therefore sufficient to choose the tragedy as genre of the first Gospel.

    Don't ignore that the cult precedes the legend."
    Last edited by R_Baird; 10-30-2015 at 04:27 AM.

  9. #19
    Hi Bob,

    I enjoyed reading your write up about women.

    More so, I enjoyed doing that research into the life of women in the Middle Ages.

    As your say,

    gnosis means wisdom - not salvation

    You mention Charlemagne today under the thread, The Lord's Prayer.
    First let me again emphasis, this is no special claim to fame and not even uncommon for so many people to trace their linage back to him.
    Actually, I prefer to look into the women vs the men.
    Of course, this can be trickier to find information.

    Today, my discourse is between Margaret de Clare, Baroness Badlesmere and Qeeen Isabella of France.

    Thus, this goes back to the ending remark of the above post

    Don't ignore that the cult precedes the legend.
    I am not so sure about this because most cults are based on legends.
    Which is why, it is important to look at the culture surrounding legends.

    The other day on VC, a poster was going after the idea that culture has nothing to do with religion.
    Of course, this was after I mentioned the importance of comparing and contrasting cultures - and of course, the poster posted under another thread, passive aggressive.

    Regards, Sal

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Was that one of the Muslim (cleric pretenders) wise men? They tried to tell me that their religion has nothing to do with their culture even while I showed their prophet was a pedophile who sold himself to a rich woman and engaged in Genital disfigurement. They really got cheesed off when I presented a top prophet or other historical character instructing the men not to be 'bum buddies' and take his daughters instead. They never did get my point that he was giving women to deviates (they were not his actual daughters). Of course with all the "like"- ing they did on each other's posts I constantly called them bum buddies.

    In fact as you know culture and myth are interchangeable and religion is not from G-d.

    As to no importance in reference to being related to great historical people - generally that is true. BUT there is genetic information transfer and once you attune with it (Their time, their writings, and your own genetic core or center) the ancestry thing becomes more important.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 10-31-2015 at 04:38 PM.

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