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Thread: Hi iSal

  1. #21
    Hello Mr. Baird,

    Reviewing a course, Human Origins by Don Johanson, a professor (found Lucy) of paleoanthropology. According to Johanson, there is a difference between language and communication.

    Communication is situational, abstract. Of interest is the idea, we as humans within our development of language/communication have both a biological and cultural evolution - Dobzhansky.

    Found an interesting statement of Dobzhansky from “Ethics and Values in Biological and Cultural Evolution”,

    Natural selection can favor egotism, hedonism, cowardice instead of bravery, cheating and exploitation, while group ethics in virtually all societies tend to counteract or forbid such ‘natural’ behavior, and to glorify their opposites: kindness, generosity, and even self-sacrifice for the good of others of one’s tribe or nation and finally of mankind.
    So, looking further Dobzhansky and find a little paper submitted to academia, Morality and evolution: what did the Synthetic Theory architects said about it? - Juan Manuel Rodríguez Caso and Rosaura Ruiz Gutiérrez

    One of Dobzhansky’s main intelectual influence in regard to human evolution was the work of French palaeontologist and Jesuit priest Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955)
    Of course the name Pierre Teilhard de Chardin jumps out from one of our previous discussions on another board and you cite him on many threads here at WM, so I pull up some of these posts which leads to Ptolemy's Harmonics All the posts in this thread are a fascinating, worthwhile read - even touches upon Platonic solids and from the title - you guessed it music!!!

    And going to backtrack here for a moment to state I did not understand what you meant by giving vs taking until you clarified in another post, Nichomachean Ethics afterwards connecting it to RIGHT THOUGHT - RIGHT ACTION.

    The basic idea is this - if you owe someone anything at the point of your death - you are not free to move into higher realms of harmonized soulful connections in the Harmonic Convergent Pyramid of all knowledge, energy and oneness (G-d, Nirvana etc.). Thus I do not 'take' as well as I 'give' and I appear (correctly) to be a martyr or even masochist.
    And in response to a inquiry asked another poster, to explain the Platonic solids with a hint - Ashmolean Museum. Leads to the Neolithic Carved Sandstone Balls. Excellent article for the layman (me) describing this by a Nobel Prize Winner, physic, Frank Wilczek, Beautiful Losers: Plato’s Geometry of Elements

    One must also admire the boldness of genius in seeing an apparent defect in the theory—five solids for four elements—as an opportunity for crowning creation, either with the Universe as a whole (Plato) or with space itself (Aristotle).
    So even though the Wilczek goes against this theory of Plato's insight- it is always important to look at both sides of the picture, per se and the comments addressing this are well worth the read, too. One can benefit also from reading, TIMAEUS, by Plato along with your thread mentioned above - Ptolemy's Harmonics. I seriously doubt I can bring anything new to this forum that has not been covered already, but still exciting to research a subject and find it reference here for further details.

    Lost track of where this quote originated, may have been one of your insertions here on WM, and think it is important to include

    Aristotle's question about the kinds of shapes that fill space, has proven to be crucial to the study of crystals where atoms are locked into repeating geometric patterns in 3-dimensional space. Metaphysically, the Platonic Solids show how all things come from one source and are intimately and permanently woven together.
    Now, I do not have the full answer in detail and of course I know you know already but think it all leads back to all your threads on the grid.
    BTW - Learned about this in a couple Geography classes (last year or year before - Physical Geo & Social Geo).
    Actually had to do a short one page paper on the Grid - nowadays Google Earth is an example.
    And your sharing of information leads to Critical Path - By R. Buckminster Fuller - link not to entire book, but enough to get started.

    Way too much here - would fill up pages with quotes of interest that confirm so much of what you already talk about here (and surely cover in your books connecting with your building blocks)!!! Thus no need to go further in an explanation. Just gonna say this goes way beyond the time-frame of Plato - IMHO he just passed on this info, like Bucky, you, and so many others.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-29-2016 at 05:28 AM.

  2. #22

    And tying this all into Human Origins connection with biological and cultural evolution in regards to the difference between language and communication.

    To be human - biological description by Bucky from the book, I Seem To Be a Verb,

    "I live on Earth at present, and I don't know what I am. I know that I am not a category. I am not a thing—a noun. I seem to be a verb, an evolutionary process—an integral function of the universe."
    To be human - cultural description in regards to the use of words(language) to communication (yes, sometimes Wikipedia includes some helpful info)

    The words "down" and "up", according to Fuller, are awkward in that they refer to a planar concept of direction inconsistent with human experience. The words "in" and "out" should be used instead, he argued, because they better describe an object's relation to a gravitational center, the Earth. "I suggest to audiences that they say, 'I'm going "outstairs" and "instairs."' At first that sounds strange to them; They all laugh about it. But if they try saying in and out for a few days in fun, they find themselves beginning to realize that they are indeed going inward and outward in respect to the center of Earth, which is our Spaceship Earth. And for the first time they begin to feel real 'reality.'
    In addition to be human - cultural description
    from a chapter exert, Culture Is Essential from the book, Not By Genes Alone: How Culture Transformed Human Evolution by Peter J. Richerson and Robert Boyd takes habits and observations to be evolved from more from just the idea that the human brain developed from Pleistocene hominids that were "extra-smart chimpanzees" inferring that it was not merely genetic evolution leading to culture as a consequence.Taking note that even Darwin (Descent of Man in 1874) "did not dismiss the attribute all of our development to spontaneous natural evolution of both the body and the mind."

    Distilling the Essence of an Evolutionary Process and Implications for a Formal Description of Culture,
    LIANE GABORA - Department of Psychology, University of California, Berkeley, USA
    and Center Leo Apostel for Interdisciplinary Studies, Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Brussels, Belgium

    Center Leo Apostel for Interdisciplinary Studies and Department of Mathematics
    Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Brussels, Belgium

    An idea has a different impact on different individuals, depending on the beliefs and preconceptions already in place. Furthermore, individuals differ in the extent to which they process it, and thus the extent to which their worldview is affected by it and by its ‘halo’ of implications. They also differ in the extent to which their processing of the idea takes place alone or through interaction with others
    And want to thank you, Mr. Baird, for the link to to the blog article, BEYOND DARWIN – The Hidden Rhythm of Evolution by June 1, 2015 in you thread, Ptolemy's Harmonics

    What do I find
    - the expected mention of Teilhard de Chardin
    as well as
    - the mention of the synthetic theory (the title of the website that led me here to begin with Morality and evolution: what did the Synthetic Theory architects said about it?) touching on the lack of explaining "sudden changes in species" and "long periods of stasis"

    In 1922, Grandjean corrected Haeckel’s claim that “ontogeny reproduces phylogeny” and proposed a complementary formulation: “ontogeny does not reproduce phylogeny, it creates it”, thereby suggesting that these branches in the ontogenetic pathway are precisely the ones that generate the novel leaps in phylogenetic pathways. These same approaches from the world of Biology are similarly repeated in the socio-cultural sphere when addressing the issue of whether anthropological development precedes the evolution of institutions, is a consequence of it, or both.
    along with providing a connection to "evolutionary rhythms" - the rhythm of evolution with the ideaology of of "corporeal substance of the world" vs patterns and orders and musical harmonics.

    Now, since begin this train of thought began with Human Origins - Culture - Communication - checked in to see what is happening at the the Max Planck Institute.
    And read about the recent opening of The Max Planck Institute for Empirical Aesthetics - October 13, 2015 with three Departments, Language and Literature, Music, and Neuroscience

    The scientists will be using a variety of research methods and an interdisciplinary approach to investigate the numerous types and nuances of aesthetic pleasure, as well as the role played by individual, social and cultural differences. One of the challenges facing the Institute is to develop and integrate hypotheses, theories and models drawn from widely differing disciplines, particularly from psychology, the traditional poetics of the individual arts, musicology, artistic and literary science, philosophical aesthetics, biology, sociology and the neurosciences.
    One of their more recent article on this subject, Musical rhythms in the brain - October 26, 2015 discussing the connection between cortical oscillations, speech rhythms, and music.

    Thus, close with my troubadour; of course, should be careful to define the difference between a troubadour and a Guru.

    Working on a Guru - Bob Dylan
    Rain on the ground, windshield wipers moving

    Yes, I should post under the correlating threads, it is just easier for me to keep track of my threads and train of thought keeping my commnets here, since no-one else posts.
    Nonetheless, I do see your point, if you are directing others here to read.

    Yes, Dylan and his phases. You know, he use to do a lot of talking at concerts during this time. Nowadays, he just announces they are going to take a short break midway through... which I do not mind one bit - lol

    Those verses you quote - I can not express in words the fun it was to sing along with him!!!

    Regards, Sal

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Although you and I are the only contributors - there are many readers. I think they are authors getting research ideas and I have had students e-mail me from community college classes who dissect some of the thought here for class papers. Yes, there is a through line to what you and I are doing but YOU are now leading us down paths which I might be the student or associate rather than the teacher. It is fine if you choose to continue it here but I just created a new thread taking a lot of the cultural evolutionary impacts contemplated here.

    I did not read all of the research from the Max Planck study of music impacting our brain's development but that was a large part of why the Kelts taught mime, minstrels and oratory (Ogham covers all) at an early age.

    I find it especially repulsive that you can get a Ph. D. in Philosophy for addressing Augustine in a conventional manner.

    He had been a follower of Mani and if he had not sold out we might never have been subjected to such deceit and terror. Mani wanted ecumenicism!

    “For the thing itself which is now called the Christian religion, was known to the ancients, and was not wanting at any time from the beginning of the human race until the time that Christ came in the flesh, from whence the true religion, that had existed previously, began to be called Christian, and this in our day is the Christian religion, not as having been wanting in former times, but as having in later times received the name”. - Saint Augustine
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-29-2016 at 05:21 AM.

  4. #24
    Hello Mr. Baird,

    Yes, others do indeed read this forum. And it is so refreshing to not have posters coming in to derail threads with derogatory comments - like WTH are you talking about, get to the point in less words, dumb down your posts for the general audience, etc Actually it is a courtesy to post the links to the material covered - could simply reference material and include quotes. So, yep, if I was writing a paper (book), I could get an abundance of building blocks here.

    Of course, would not write in the style I do here. There is an art to writing an A paper and personally took me awhile to get all the technical details/mechanics down to get the end product to flow. Would never turn in a paper without the use of a thesaurus, grammar checker, choosing a thesis statement carefully, and using topic sentences with paragraphs and main points using conjunctive phrases. Here it is merely a rambling free flow of ideas - a rough rough first draft. Thus, why some posts lengthy, appear disjointed and throw in a comma or dash whenever the mood suits me.

    Fairly certain would have a few degrees, if I actually had used all the courses towards one. Because I like you have assisted others in dissecting material. But unlike you, I am a ghost writer - freelancing my material/research and will never receive credit, but it does not matter because I am richer for the knowledge gained in this process. So, I can imagine all the questions that arrive in your email.... from students.

    Hmm, no never dynamics with you as student and I as the teacher - associate = maybe - a bit presumptuous, though. Nonetheless, do enjoy our rapport in these discourses - although do strive to contribute some substance - otherwise this would be a waste of my, yours, and others time.

    Anyways, maybe - maybe not post under your threads. A good researcher needs to learn the skill of using keywords to locate material subjects covered here in this forum or anywhere on the internet or they loose out on a wealth of information/knowledge. In addition being aware of (btw the link below - well worth the read for those not familiar with Phenomenology). Including this because it fits into the discourse getting ready to post and goes into the subject of the body and mind, too - which leads to alchemy - intertwined with myths, culture, and language later in these posts. BTW - appreciate it when authors write - skip this part if already familiar with the subject - or simply quickly scan. Not all informational - material - is for every researcher - reader.

    And yes, the topic of music covered at the Max Planck is not new knowledge for you, just simply referencing that this avenue is growing - and did not actually find any in depth information - yet - but building blocks for the future - maybe....

    Before commenting on the new thread started, Cultural Impacts on Evolving Species with your additional material - going to continue my "train of thought" as I did not cover/connect culture and communication to myth because we have had quite the discourse on myths (thus far) and want to take it a step further.

    Because as you say

    Of course the whole idea of this thread will also have sub-sets and precepts which devolve epistemologically past teleologic sense or sensibility.
    David Woodruff Smith, Phenomenology, published in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

    Ontology is the study of beings or their being — what is.
    Epistemology is the study of knowledge — how we know.
    Logic is the study of valid reasoning — how to reason.
    Ethics is the study of right and wrong — how we should act.
    Phenomenology is the study of our experience — how we experience.
    Thus shall continue with the importance of understanding just because an idea considered a myth, does not mean it has no impact on culture/society. It is important to understand the perceptions and perspectives. At the same time careful when constructing meanings to take into account "lived space (spatiality), lived body (corporeality), lived time (temporality), lived human relations (relationality)" without too much generalizations with an end result fallacy by your account is correct. Easy read how Phenomenology correlates within the work place, in this case - health professionals, and the four italicized attributes listed above gleaned from this short article.

    Again going to caution that even though this article states,

    By looking at multiple perspectives of the same situation, a researcher can start to make some generalisations of what something is like as an experience from the 'insider's' perspective.
    Noting the keyword - some.

    Oh BTW haha - caught what you meant by to be or not - in your new thread (glad you started it) Cultural Impacts on Evolving Species

    Finally for this opening post we have some of what Sal included in the thread Hi iSal. I just noticed a word or phrase after not capitalizing the 's'. Hi Is All. I could make a High universal consciousness discourse out of that - like "to BE or not".
    To be continued -

  5. #25
    Continued -
    Did not quite catch the meaning of the following sentence you wrote under the Golden Bough thread - but kept wondering about it.

    Those dwarves were so important in the Hyksos reign of Hatshepsut that she did not care one iota for anything else on a whole ship - but sent special guards and envoys to meet and care for a dwarf.
    Then last week read this from you on another forum -

    DNA and forensic study of mutations on plants has told us a great deal about how long we have been travelling all over this planet. One example I have made before but no fool reads - is Flores Island which we know was over the horizon for two million years and yet artifacts dated to 825,000 years prove man got there - and then years after I had made a big deal of it and Mungo Man genetic knowledge with dwarves - we heard about the hobbit.
    So, back I go to this World Mysteries forum to find more on what you mention on the drawfs. Of course, leads me back to the Golden Bough thread quoted at the top of this post and realize the need to to digest more of the information already provided. And not sure why, but never read the book, The Hobbit, nor watched the movie. Found a free link to the book, so shall read it. Huh, now that I think about it, do have the 3 books packed away... called the Lord of the Rings.

    Also found more referances under the thread

    Bigfoot Blog

    3) Science would explain how such hominids exist. Building on the DNA evidence recently proven since we have the Hobbit. Science has not explained any way such a creature came to be. It has not made much of an attempt to consider ancient genetic manipulation through attunement and shamanic science or sex rituals. There are other mutations of giants and dwarves found throughout history. I document the dwarves very well in my books. They were highly prized and very malleable to our purposes - see Hatchepsut's prized cargo or the mining ops in Lake Superior. What about their remains - not a single solitary bone found throughout millennia at Isle Royale? I can explain that more than one way but let me point to tiger teeth and rhino horn etc., used by men to gain sexual potency.
    This link has another recent hominid discovery and scientists who seem to continue trying to maintain the old theories despite all the recent facts. They do admit they might be wrong and that is refreshing. And this from a little earlier than Denisovan and a new Iberian find - who knows how many and when it started. More DNA facts.
    Okay, now know you've written several books on this subject, so not going to bring up much new information for you, but will provide my current train of thought (and yes it is bound to change)

    So, off I go to on a a search to locate more connections.

    Beginning with a short descriptive basic outline on Hatshepsut, Hatshepsut: Female Pharaoh of Egypt which led to her article, her article, Bes, God-Demon of Protection, Childbirth and Entertainment and the mention of some other dwarf gods."

    Worth noting, gleaned from this article is

    He was not a god of Egyptian origin. Bes was described as 'Coming from the Divine Land' and 'Lord of Punt' (perhaps an area in present day Somalia - see Hatshepsut's Expedition to Punt). He was thus linked to the goddess Hathor who was known as the 'Lady of Punt' and also a goddess of music. During this period, he was given a wife, known as Beset - a female version of the dwarf god, presiding over protection, pleasure and childbirth. She was also a goddess of the harvest and a divine nurse. The two did were not depicted together before the Ptolemaic era, but during this period an Beset was occasionally shown holding an infant Bes while she offers her breast to nurse him. This iconography was used to connect these two deities with Isis and her son Horus, or conflating them as Isis-Beset and Horus-Bes.
    Hmm - maybe I read this article before the first - no matter. Also - noted - merely another guess to the location of Punt... at this point in research.

    Anyways the short article goes on to connect an origin before the Egyptians, which goes back again to one of my first quotes under your Golden Bough thread after reading your recommended book, The Religion of Ancient Egypt by W. M. Flinders Petrie

    The compound god Ptah-Seker is shown as a bandy-legged dwarf, with wide flat head, a known aberration of growth. It seems as if we should connect this with the pataikoi who were worshipped by Phoenician sailors as dwarf figures, the name being similar. This points to a connection of the Phoenician race with the dynastic Egyptians. Ptah was worshipped in all ages down to Greek times.
    Noting this did not end with the Greeks, nor the Romans, and even the Christians have connection between Bes and Moses.

    After the triumph of Christianity Bes did not immediately vanish from the memory of man; for we are told of a wicked demon named Bes whom the holy Moses had to exorcise because he was terrorising the neighbourhood. To this day, it would seem, the monumental southern gate of Ipet-Isut (Karnak) serves as a dwelling-place for a knock-kneed dwarf whose gross head is embellished with a formidable beard. Woe to the stranger who, coming across him in the dusk of evening, laughs at his grotesque figure! For the monster will leap at his throat and strangle him. He is the Bes of ancient Egypt who, after long centuries, is not yet resigned to abandoning altogether the scenes of his earlier greatness.
    -- The Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology 1994, p. 39
    Now, the above imformation is basically thought of as a myth (folklore) from the past in regards to drawfs seen as a god, Bess or Ptah - At this point it does not matter - true or not because this discourse is about the connection between myths, communication and culture.
    In this case there is a going to be a mixture of the knowledge of drawfs in the past as both a myth and a fact of drawfs existing.

    See links below

    This first link is the main paper that the other linked sources appear to base their articles/papers upon

    From the American Journal of Medical Genetics, Historical Review Dwarfs in Ancient Egypt - Chahira Kozma
    Department of Pediatrics, Georgetown University Hospital, Washington, District of Columbia
    Received 3 July 2005; Accepted 10 October 2005

    Ancient Egypt 'respected dwarfs' - BBC News

    The ancient Egyptians respected dwarfs, and did not see them as having a physical handicap, according to a study by US researchers.
    Dwarfs in ancient Egypt. - Kozma C abstract appears in US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health

    Skeletal dysplasia in ancient Egypt. - Kozma C
    Department of Pediatrics, Georgetown University Hospital

    Both artistic evidence and moral teachings in ancient Egypt reveal wide integration of individuals with disabilities into the society.
    Science Daily - Dwarfs Commanded Respect In Ancient Egypt - December 27, 2005
    Source: John Wiley & Sons, Inc.

    An article published in the January 2006 issue of the American Journal of Medical Genetics examines the remains and depiction of dwarfs in ancient Egypt, concluding that they were assimilated into daily life and their disorder was not seen as a physical handicap.
    Ancient Egyptians Held Dwarves in High Esteem - Ker Than 2005 from Live Science


    In addition to dwarfism, the ancient Egyptians were tolerant of other genetic and medical disorders, Kozma said. The tomb of Tutankhamun, for example, contained a funeral gift depicting a female dwarf who also had bowed legs and clubbed feet.

    In fact, a respect for the disabled was ingrained into the "wisdom teachings" of the culture. Amenemope, a wise man who lived during the New Kingdom, wrote that care for the old, the sick and the malformed was a moral duty.

    Yet, what if this was NOT a defect ???????


    Well, along comes the H. floresiensis ..... hobbit - dwarf (Yes, discovered BEFORE the above linked articles by about two years)

    To be continued -

  6. #26
    Continued -

    First - Will provide a little background on H. floresiensis

    - beginning back in the 1950's and 60's - archaeological research by Father Theodor Verhoeven - one of his excavations - Liang Bua - Flores - says hey found something here! Alas, gets same treatment as Barry Fells and others.

    Source - 'Hobbits' on Flores, Indonesia from the Smithsonian Institution

    Guess what - yeah - most people can - or already know - like you, Mr. Baird, but I did not.... here is the remains of a dwarf - the kicker is that is even not that old - could be as young as 18,000 years. Meaning living among us humans.

    Nowadays - the general conscientious with the scholars and educators is that there was interbreeding taking place with other species - but to date no success extracting the DNA from the H. floresiensis - meaning no-one can say one way or the other yet!

    Of course, research came out right away upon discovery back in 2003 with the idea the short stature due to a disease - defect - deformed - etc etc etc - or caused from the environmental conditions in the area. Similar to all the article listed above referencing dwarfs back in Ancient times.

    Anyone reading this interested in a short recap - here is a short video 'Hobbits' on Flores, Indonesia

    summary - going back to archaeological research done in the 1950's and 60's by Father Theodor Verhoeven - one of his excavations - Liang Bua - now known as a site of containing Homo floresiensis (hobbits - dwarfs of human evolution). Of course, got the same treatment of others; such as, Barry Fells.

    He even argued that Homo erectus from Java was likely behind making the stone tools found on Flores and may have reached the island around 750,000 years ago.

    Jump ahead to the 1990's and along comes more documentation, this time more accepted - well - at least acknowledge that there was a species - article states possibly of 700,000 years old Homo erectus in Flores before the Homo sapiens in Africa 200,000 years ago.

    But not to be over-looked - which I did at first - the Homo floresiensis (hobbits - dwafs) is only 18,000 years old. Emphasizing again - not that long ago ....

    From the above linked video

    Matt Tocheri from the Human Origins Program does not concur with the idea of a deformity and furthermore researched the change of evolution in the wrists and notes in the H. floresiensis it is not similar to ours but to earlier species - which indicates that there is no deformity but another species - meaning we have confirmation that years of evolution needing exploration because only 18,000 years old - but we do not have all the data of history....there is a gap - recall stone tools found here going back 750,000 - 800,000 years and oh yeah along comes mainland Asia and its history of evolution.... because he is attempting to hold on to the Out of Africa theory?

    Yep, story is just like a fairy tale - folktale - myth
    Source - Video with transcript
    Little People of Flores

    ROBERT KRULWICH: You're not going to believe this, and I wouldn't blame you, 'cause if I told you this story that..."once upon a time, on a little island, somewhere way off in the sea, there lived a race of teeny people not known to science. They lived with elephants the size of ponies. They hunted dragons that spat poisonous saliva laced with botulism and anthrax..."

    You'd say, "Come on."

    But here's the thing. An international team of paleoanthropologists think that this story may be true, and tonight we're going to show you evidence that suggests that these little people may have existed on our planet for tens of thousands years. And, even more intriguing, there's the outside chance, they may still be around.

    Midway between Asia and Australia, here in Indonesia, lies the island of Flores. For centuries the people who lived here told tales of little, hairy people.
    Although, not sure why we hear from the Pulitzer Prize Winner, JARED DIAMOND, (most people familiar with his books - taught in a lot of courses) in the video presentation say when speaking about migrations (because of course - going to report they must of migrated - holding on to the Out of Africa theory for all forms of life? but no way had the skill to build a boat - were able to do it with the lower water levels back then...) of species say

    Elephants did it. Monkeys did it. If monkeys could do it, why couldn't these dumb humans do it?
    - going to guess it was an attempt at dry humor, but falls it a bit flat - takes mentality back to the literal cave man inadequacies

    And when questioned on interbreeding - wow!

    My bet is we did not have sex with them. And here's my reasoning. I would have predicted that they would have been really nasty, just like any humans would be really nasty.
    With this kind of dismissive attitude no wonder video reports

    I did have somebody speak to me, a geologist, and he didn't want to be named because, of course, he felt like if he told people he'd seen little people, people would think he'd seen aliens or something like that. So, at the moment, we are going to follow these stories of an actual cave where they may have been living, and we, we do intend to go and excavate this actual cave.
    Some might quickly conclude (as many did the species not only deformed) that their small brain size indicate a lack of or a limited cognition ability - not so according to Ralph Holloway an expert on ancient skulls - what it means is that the brain was organized differently - but does not mean could do less - why?

    Because there is a connection with their use of stone tools, campfires, and hunting Komodo dragons up to 500 pounds.

    What does this infer?

    Well, not only does this lead to more research for brain scientists and models for "human intelligence"
    But there also was a sense of community - and if going after a huge animal - no way doing it on their own - thus - language - communicating!

    Now jump ahead to recent research, as note - no DNA - yet - but latest reports by some intelligent academics say - NOPE -

    "The tiny people from Flores were not simply diseased modern humans,"
    from an article posted by Discovery Communications, New Fossils Help Bring Hobbit Humans to Life, JAN 10, 2013 03:00 AM ET // BY JENNIFER VIEGAS based on a Journal of Human Evolution paper and interview with Caley Orr article does not provide a link or to the paper - will have to find it)

    Confirms Tocheri's research noted above, 'Hobbits' on Flores, Indonesia from the Smithsonian Institution

    The Hobbit's wrist looked like that of early human relatives, such as Australopithecus, but the key ancestral candidate now is Homo erectus, "Upright Man."
    And seems to support the idea of Diamonds hypothesis

    It is possible that a population of H. erectus became stranded on the Indonesian island and dwarfed there over time. Orr said that "sometimes happens to larger animals that adapt to small island environments."
    While at least acknowledging

    A problem, however, is that H. erectus is somewhat more modern looking than the Hobbit, so researchers are still seeking more clues.
    Another question concerns whether or not the Hobbits ever mated with modern humans. There is evidence that happened to Neanderthals, which have left traces of their genome in modern human DNA. So far, however, conditions have not been right to extract DNA from H. floresiensis bones.
    Yet the article is a bit confusing when it reports

    To be continued -

  7. #27
    continued -

    "These fossils provide further, clear evidence that H. floresiensis is in no way a pathological modern human, or that its primitive morphology is related simply to its small body size," said Tracy Kivell, a paleoanthropologist from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. "Instead, it is clearly its own, unique and very intriguing species."
    And in the next sentences state

    Kivell added, "What is particularly interesting is that H. floresiensis is associated with such a long, well-documented history of stone tools. (Its primitive hand and wrist were) still apparently capable of making and using stone tools, suggesting that H. floresiensis solved the morphological and manipulative demands of tool-making and tool-use in a different way than Neanderthals and ourselves."
    Of course the this quote differs from the the other quote with the words
    no way and clearly
    to associated, apparently, suggesting

    Of course - should throw this into the mix Homo Erectus: Facts About the 'Upright Man' - Joseph Castro, Live Science Contributor | June 22, 2015

    Other H. erectus fossils have been found in Olduvai Gorge, Tanzania, where anthropologists have discovered primate and early human ancestor fossils going back almost 25 million years.
    Okay done posting for now - think I have it set up enough to connect this information between myth, culture, and communication in the upcoming posts - and going to take it a step further into alchemy.
    Because - yeah yeah I know a lot of material posted here today.

    Regards, Sal

    My Back Pages by Bob Dylan

    Crimson flames tied through my ears
    Rollin’ high and mighty traps
    Pounced with fire on flaming roads
    Using ideas as my maps
    “We’ll meet on edges, soon,” said I
    Proud ’neath heated brow
    Ah, but I was so much older then
    I’m younger than that now

    To be continued - another day

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Dear Sal

    I certainly agree you deserve at least two sheepskins - philosophy and Liberal Arts (Masters).

    And yes, it is wonderful to share with a person who actually CARES and has a Joy of and for Learning. Phenomenologically speaking for a teleologic reason more logical than getting a sheepskin. Of course sheep need sheepskin and though there was a time I thought it would help - that has not really interested me much for so long I can't remember why I really went along with that whole concept.

    Needless to say we can cover far more ground doing the 'train of thought' approach and doing a paper to get a mark or trying to make sense to those with no sense or knowledge - is not preferable for either of us. Unfortunately it gets to where even my truly knowledgeable fellow researchers have said I have a 'rolling thunder' style of writing. I say it is all over the place because if you do not integrate all of the things which are important to the subject you probably have missed most of what is going on - and should shut your mouth! Then (as at Paracast right now) I am told I have no grace, am offensive and demeaning, etc..

    In the thread on Mind/Spirit Enhancing Machine a man named Stuart (I think you quoted it) whose father taught music and harmonics in university remarked on Solresol and suggestopaedia - I hope you can meld that with the Eranos/Esalen content to the degree you see The Stone goes past at-one-ment or attunement to actually affect matter to transmute it, or the human body.

    I forget which of my books included all we came up with on the dwarves which Cheryl Hartwell added a lot to. You are doing a pretty good job in piecing some of my off hand remarks on the Hobbit together. OH what a battle ROYAL I had with Hall of Ma'at and other teacher-types - I choose to forget the names of - one of them went so far as to write a scathing article you can find at Scrib'd which sort of suggests I support alien intervention - what a crock!

    Oh, don't forget Hank Wesselmann - recently I was ridiculed for thinking he is a true adept for his ability to heal proven at the U of Illinois. The person doing the ridiculing did this because someone thinks he is a nut to suggest he communicates with a Hawaiian Druid who might even be dead.

    Yes, it makes me feel young (Dylan) to learn.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 11-18-2015 at 12:34 PM.

  9. #29
    Hello Mr. Baird,

    Moving along - not ready for the conclusion - still in the midst of research - and want to hold off leading into alchemy and tying all the other research points together.
    Well, actually probably should not use the term Alchemy but Hermeticism.

    Just going to point out and this may not make sense to readers and not actually going to site the source - so readers can take it with a grain of salt - pun intended.
    But again - not writing about the physical attributes of alchemy - even those these two terms may appear to be so


    noun, plural homunculi
    an artificially made dwarf, supposedly produced in a flask by an alchemist.
    a fully formed, miniature human body believed, according to some medical theories of the 16th and 17th centuries, to be contained in the spermatozoon.
    a diminutive human being.
    the human fetus.
    cortical homunculus - those unfamiliar - the image representation of interest

    A cortical homunculus is a pictorial representation of the anatomical divisions of the primary motor cortex and the primary somatosensory cortex,[1] i.e., the portion of the human brain directly responsible for the movement and exchange of sensory and motor information of the body.
    The cortical homunculus is a visual representation of the concept of "the body within the brain" that one's hand or face exists as much as a series of nerve structures or a "neuron concept" as it does a physical form
    Anyways .. read another clue from you over at another site... not been able to find much more information - yet - at first thrown off because a quick google search brings up the World Heritage Site in Louisiana and took a minute or two to figure out Poverty Point is actually the name of a culture.

    Poverty Point (dwarves found by Barry Fell in Kentucky - 600 if I recall)
    Well, I do recall you mentioning this before or reading it somewhere by you....

    So, off I go.... Yes - back to your book "From Om to Ogham"

    According to a Mayan legend, the temple complex of Uxmal in the
    Yucatan Peninsula was built by a race of dwarfs who were able to move heavy rocks into
    place by whistling. These ‘dwarfs are likely the older and unrelated ‘modern’ man than
    Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Mungo Man is not part of the African strain and there may be
    other hominids unrelated to us. The fact that his bones were covered in Red Ochre has
    been developed by me in other books to show advanced alchemical knowledge and it is
    clear that the various records of these pygmies show people like the Egyptians in the time
    of Hatschepsut valued them more than a ship full of gold or other minerals and gems. I
    think their knowledge of acoustics and harmonics is not yet achieved in modern science;
    although that might soon change
    Along with finding the writings of Catherine Obianuju Acholonu, OGAM STONE INSCRIPTIONS AND IGBO COLUMN-WRITING -- A COMPARISON

    Ogam (also spelled Ogham) was the earliest form of writing and communication known in the British Isles and in Scandinavia, where ancient traditions insist that it was introduced by the Druids, who, according to the indigenous traditions of the Isles, were Black African dwarfs and magicians.
    The Straight Lines of the Great Pond By Richard Flavin

    A small, stone building just past the bridge, on the edge of Lake Cochichewick...
    It was the work of powerful dwarves. Short, yet stout, the small, stone building seemed monumental and grandiose.
    Would be of interest to read from The Epigraphic Society Occasional Publications and Papers, Mythology and Epigraphy, Giants, goblins, dwarves and more.... Douglas G. Blizzard. Volume 12 year - 1982
    But not available online (as far as know)...


    - refreshing to read the name Barry Fell without a dismissive attitude.

    - thanks for awarding me my diplomas

    - ha ha to your 'rolling thunder' style of writing - (name of one of Dylan's tours back in the day) - thus here is my shout out in place of a quote...

    - yes learning does allow one to remain "young"

    - I might read the book you mentioned (got it bookmarked) The ancient history of the Egyptians, Carthaginians, Assyrians ..., Volume 2
    By Charles Rollin, Robert Lynam

    - interesting to read about Olga Fröbe Kapteyn and The Eranos Foundation

    - Familiar (to a degree) with the concept/practice of Solresol and suggestopaedia but not the terminology having worked in the field of communicating/teaching children and adults in a variety of institutions/settings, (also employed by a University - years ago - participating in "new" ways to communicate seminars (etc) met many wonderful people working on their masters and doctorals, had free-reign (to a degree) in the theater department with props (favorite memory-experience producing a play). Got to say it was also an unforgettable experience to receiving training in a institution for the developmentally disabled as the state began to promote closing it and "progressing towards group home settings. And then to get a personal tour of a states first institution (kind of behind the scenes and up close and personal look) for the "insane" is the derogatory term used back then. As well as, my in-laws that were deaf. My father in law was quite a bit older when became a father to my husband - and his educational experience quite interesting back in the day...mother in law younger and a bit wealthier went to one of the first private schools for the hearing impaired. But you know, my first interest is dyslexia and autism, but have worked with so many children and adults with brain injuries due to physical abuse, too... sickening.
    So, yeah did mention this subject slightly in another post about a school system in a improvised area implementing this idea of Solresol and Suggestopaedia.

    Now, to "meld" this into The Stone - well, I will spend more time into the content and context.

    - Oh yeah, amazing how others can misinterpret - what a crock indeed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    meaning its OK but to get rude about it without looking into a subject more... blah

    - Did read a few of Wesselmann's articles.

    - Actually going to say more about interpretation and symbolism - communication - later - found some interesting material.

    - Hmm - did read one of the latest threads over at the other site thought about joining but it has nothing to offer me
    Nonetheless, this would be my response - question - observation to the fellow attempting to justify the settling of North America and the World in general over time - as that is just the way history rolls - winner takes the spoils and others should not point about it - while missing the concept and context of the subject floored me.

    Since Mr. Baird offered a diverse amount of helpful information in this thread on the subject of what you call "indigenous" and "white man" concerning the history of regions of land in North America. Not going to comment further on that topic.

    However, you bring up the idea of "weaker cultures" and at the same time refer to the need to leave the idea of "race" out of the picture justifying the need to " finding ways to bridge and not divide" and this caught my interest. Perhaps, not conducive to promote equality while using descriptions; such as, "barbaric"

    Did you catch the reference about interbreeding and the significance of this statement?

    For example, in the mix of names mentioned in this thread is Barry Fell; although Fell's reputation in mainstream academics questionable, DNA brings new information to consider on the history of Ancient history in North America.
    Regards, Sal

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Dear Sal

    I await your further insights on physical alchemy - and must say the idea of an Homunculus being a virtual holographic entity comes to mind while reading those definitions. I would not try to DEFINE one myself - nor would I have seen a connection with dwarves. I think making one in a flask is NOVEL or deranged - I am no expert on the homunculus, but I have read extensive and copious amounts of alchemy in lore from those who KNOW nothing to the actual alchemical works of the true adepts. I see connections to the golem and gargoyles (see Kafka for a mutant concept thereof).

    Richard Flavin has piqued my further interest and we should cobble (lol) up the gist of what he says and you interpret into the Ogham and Aymara thread - it being one of the most complete compendiums on the subject available anywhere (IMHO). I am not saying there are not places where you can see more Ogham script - or facile and false verbiage about it - acting as if it is what Anne Ross is saying - such utter nonsense was also said about Le Placard baton Marshack proved was an accurate lunar calendar. His 25 year struggle with assholes in academia is nothing compared to what Fell went through. I still have one or two CDs of the Dawson Library of ESOP and I do not intend to ever use this vast source ever again. The thought of somehow getting them to you crosses my mind but they may have some use in proving I am not insane some day (LOL).

    Later, after reading Graves’ King Jesus and of Jesus’ exposure to ogham while training in Egypt, ogham became for me a potent symbol of a pagan past before Christianity.
    When Flavin said the above I saw so many connections with MacDari and I have read his White Goddess to cull some Phoenician insights - though good; not as good as the Golden Bough.

    Back to Anne Ross who wrote alongside Don Robins on The Druid Prince (was this the one in the Mummies Alive bog - I forget). She also was involved with the Hexham Heads (see thread you have already commented on) and Don and her had a falling out. I would guess it was over her lack of appreciation for what he calls a "chasm across which we must travel" to understand the megaliths he calls Macrochips.

    That is more the kind of thing I see a homunculus being - those heads! Imbued or embedded matter or miniature robotic metal pieces as in Aquinas and Albertus making a talking head of Jesus (such an inspired fiction allowed them to avoid a guilty verdict in their Heresy Trial - if you believe that was all that happened). Imbued consciousness of a minor amount but imbued ritualistic and specific projections to witness by the eyes of those who have a modicum of psychic advancement - I say.

    I love 'tripping the light' on these matters as we integrate all these things.

    It would be nice to see one of those people at the other site read something such as you say above - but if they do not read what little I have presented - that is what it is. A waste of time!

    Flavin is wrong and I prove it in many ways when he says the Irish were not here before medieval times - allowing they might have been here before the Norse is just about nonsense. And one wonders how open he truly is to such things as a far greater expert on Ogham and ancient scripts named David Kelley who says Fell's correct about 3500 BCE era ogham in Peterborough. He calls it Tiffinaugh and we know in Libya Fell found many scripts as well. Flavin does source ESOP but he did not read the whole library I have on CD.

    Even Nat Geo takes people from the Isles to America about 30,000 years ago. Has he read any DNA research - and who does ANY thinking or integrating in academia? BOY!!!!
    Last edited by R_Baird; 11-20-2015 at 07:04 AM.

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