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Thread: Jungian Hubris and Purpose versus Platonic Hierarchy

  1. #11
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    Sal makes an excellent get, which proves just how much Jung was a man of the people (hubris) despite all his sheepskins and acclaim.


    Fitting to quote one of your troubadours - Jung (Been busy reading his words and listening to him speak in videos - last couple of days)...


    Anyone who wants to know the human psyche will learn next to nothing from experimental psychology. He would be better advised to abandon exact science, put away his scholar's gown, bid farewell to his study, and wander with human heart throughout the world. There in the horrors of prisons, lunatic asylums and hospitals, in drab suburban pubs, in brothels and gambling-hells, {Truly the correct way to spell it - just as one of my homes was in Lost Wages.} in the salons of the elegant, the Stock Exchanges, socialist meetings, churches, revivalist gatherings and ecstatic sects, through love and hate, through the experience of passion in every form in his own body, he would reap richer stores of knowledge than text-books a foot thick could give him, and he will know how to doctor the sick with a real knowledge of the human soul. -- Carl Jung (from "New Paths in Psychology", in Collected Papers on Analytic Psychology, London, 1916).
    Two important parts of Jung's work are addressed in the work of Arthur C. Clarke who I suspect was influenced by Jung and who moved to Sri Lanka to be closer to reality and the people.

    As we go past the rabbit hole and sit drinking tea with the Mad Hatter who has studied many years in his evaluation of dreams and the human psyche we find Arthur C. Clarke explaining a common myth - the alien influence and Christian devil worship (for any power given to such images amounts to worship). I think what Watt says about Jung recognizing and exposing the continuum of good to evil in each of us, is relevant here.

    "The very different psyche belongs to Arthur C. Clarke, who was originally an astrophysicist and later became famous as a science-fiction writer. Clarke is a man of science and famously anti-religious. For example, the N.Y. Times quoted him as saying: “Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?”6 In other words, Clarke’s worldview is in dramatic contrast to the probable worldview of the Christian woman whose dreams we just looked at. Also, science fiction, a form that is consciously created with much effort during waking hours, would seem to be a very different source than dreams, which erupt spontaneously from the unconscious.

    Clarke is best known for the novel and Stanley Kubrick film, 2001: A Space Odyssey. 2001 is one of the most brilliant visions of the Singularity Archetype, and it will be considered in depth later in the book, by presently we are going to consider an earlier example of Clarke's work, the classic science-fiction novel, Childhood's End. Science fiction is obviously a very different medium than dreams. But like dreams, science fiction is also a fertile and open imaginal realm where the collective unconscious can communicate with modern persons, and a new mythology, however unrecognized, can express itself. Since Childhood’s End is as profound a manifestation of the Singularity Archetype as I’ve ever encountered, we’ll give it a correspondingly more thorough look.

    Childhood's End begins with extraterrestrial spacecraft appearing over the world’s capitals. Beings from within these craft break through all communications and announce that they are "the Overlords" and have come to establish peace on earth. They claim to be superior beings who wish to establish peace and prosperity on earth through the formation of a world government, maintained by their supreme authority. They ask to be thought of as civil servants rather than dictators. In fact, they do advance man’s material contentment, with the major religions standing as their only organized opposition. The Overlords succeed in establishing peace on earth and, excepting military aggression, do not curtail any human freedoms. To all appearances the Overlords are benevolent, but they remain a great unknown: “Speculations concerning the Overlords were pure guesswork. No one knew their motives; and no one knew toward what future they were shepherding mankind.”

    Much of the continuing distrust of the Overlords stems from the fact that they will not appear in public or even offer a description of their physical form. Eventually they promise to reveal themselves after two generations–fifty years.

    These fifty years pass peacefully for the human species. Thanks to the Overlords, mankind has entered a golden age of affluence and everyone eagerly awaits the day when the Overlords will descend to earth and reveal themselves. When the long-anticipated day arrives the great spacecraft descend. With some ceremony, the Overlords emerge, and to the uneasy surprise of the human species their appearance is revealed:

    “The leathery wings, the little horns, the barbed tail–all were there. The most terrible of all legends had come to life out of the unknown past. Yet now it stood smiling, in ebon majesty, with the sunlight gleaming upon its tremendous body . . .” (65).

    This decidedly mythological element is fascinatingly incongruous with the setting of technological materialism stereotypical of the science-fiction genre. What is the meaning of a specter from the Christian and pagan past reemerging in the world of the future? Clarke reveals that the Overlords’ alarming physiognomy is simply the result of their evolutionary adaptation to the environmental conditions of their planet. The Overlords are actually perfectly benevolent and are far more rational and intelligent than humans. The novel explains their physical appearance as “a racial memory of a future event,” accounting for their cross-cultural appearance in legend and myth. In other words, their physical form and association with evil is an archetype, but also a premonition. The association with evil, furthermore, is not a reflection of the Overlord’s nature, as they are in fact benevolent, but rather a result of the event horizon of total transformation that the Overlord’s arrival signifies. The instinctive and premonitory fear of the Overlord’s physical form derives from the conservatism of an established genome recognizing that metamorphosis means the obsolescence and extinction of the species in its old form.

    The Overlords are servants of the "Overmind," a cosmic intelligence permeating the universe that is Clarke's naturalistic God concept. The Overmind employs the Overlords as midwives. When the Overmind senses that an intelligent species is about to cross the evolutionary event horizon and make the jump into higher consciousness, it sends the Overlords to their planet to supervise the process. This evolutionary process is volatile and unstable, and if not properly supervised could result in disastrous consequences whose effects would reach far beyond the particular world on which the process occurs.

    The Overlords, though infinitely superior to humans in every perceivable attribute, are themselves barren and unable to manifest the evolutionary birth process that it is their perpetual task to oversee. As one of the Overlords, Rasheverak, explains:

    "Probably, like most men, you have always regarded us as your masters. That is not true. We have never been more than guardians, doing a duty imposed upon us from–above. That duty is hard to define: perhaps you can best think of us as midwives attending a difficult birth. We are helping to bring something new and wonderful into being. [. . .] Yes, we are the midwives. But we ourselves are barren" (178).

    Karellan, the chief Overlord, in a final speech to mankind, adds:

    "Our intellects are far more powerful than yours, but there is something in your minds that has always eluded us. [. . .] Our races have much in common–that is why we were chosen for this task. But in other respects, we represent the ends of two different evolutions. Our minds have reached the end of their development. So, in their present form, have yours. Yet you can make the jump to the next stage, and therein lies the difference between us."...

    "Again and again we had studied the process we have been sent to foster, hoping that we might learn to escape form our limitations. But we have glimpsed only the vague outlines of the truth. You called us the Overlords, not knowing the irony of that title. [. . .] Let us say that above us is the Overmind, using us as the potter uses his wheel."


    "And your race is the clay that is being shaped on that wheel."

    An interesting aspect of the evolutionary model presented in Childhood’s End is that intelligence is not the decisive factor catalyzing the evolutionary event horizon. The Overlords are well aware of this and recognize that it is parapsychological abilities that are more essential to the metamorphosis. Karellan makes this explicit in his final speech:

    "Your mystics, though they were lost in their own delusions, had seen part of the truth. There are powers of the mind, and powers beyond the mind, which your science could never have brought within its framework without shattering it entirely. All down the ages there have been countless reports of strange phenomena–poltergeists, telepathy, precognition–which you had named but never explained. At first science ignored them, even denied their existence, despite the testimony of five thousand years. But they exist, and, if it is to be complete, any theory of the universe must account for them.""


    http://realitysandwich.com/110176/si...ity_archetype/
    Last edited by R_Baird; 12-06-2015 at 06:56 PM.

  2. #12
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    Jung's concept of Synchronicity flowed naturally from his alchemical studies which Wikipedia wants us to believe were entirely about metaphors and never about physical changes and causes. There is congruity in the Theory of Abraxas and the Oroborous. I can see this diatribe having merit because spiritual alchemy and humanism are a major part of alchemy - and centering from TAO and Yoga dovetail with it. But alchemy does address physical changes including making the Philosopher's Stone and the greatest alchemists do both physical and spiritual attuning or at-one-ment. The ONE in at - one - ment is his collective unconscious which Wiki says nothing about because few authors contributing to Wikipedia who actually are advanced hermeticists or alchemists are not censured or laughed at. Yes, you can indeed assume about ten years ago I made an attempt to put my thoughts on their even less worthwhile site - and another person associated with me did as well. So, if Jung read the greatest alchemists including Albertus Magnus and Paracelsus, which no Hermeticist will fail to do - you know he was exposed to what I am saying.

    But in this ONE (a title of a book by Richard Bach whose books are always worth reading) we have more than an UN-conscious connection potentially. Just as Jung changed his opinion about synchronicity I think he saw some of this potential bleeding over from conscious to unconscious. It takes years of study and introspection - or is never fully comprehended anyway. Bucky's 'creative realization" and Teilhard's "Templates" are advanced thinking in this regard. I think his failed experiment with Divination that I have reported upon could have brought him and his fellow researchers a better grasp of the "matter" - which is more than spiritual. Yes, sometimes humour captures the essence better than pure logic. But "spirit" is part of matter too, as we are seeing with the Higgs Boson or God Particle and all so many things still being proven which have always been part of the Great Work. You probably cannot "grok" the fullness of what these words mean - but as I write them I get energy coursing through my body and a joy of some sort comes over me - then I have to try to capture it in words for you.

    Here is Wiki doing a good job but missing the mark - as usual.

    "Synchronicity is a concept first explained by psychiatrist Carl Jung, which holds that events are "meaningful coincidences" if they occur with no causal relationship, yet seem to be meaningfully related.[1] During his career, Jung furnished several slightly different definitions of it.[2]

    Jung variously defined synchronicity as an "acausal connecting (togetherness) principle," "meaningful coincidence", and "acausal parallelism." He introduced the concept as early as the 1920s but gave a full statement of it only in 1951 in an Eranos lecture.[3]

    In 1952, he published a paper "Synchronizität als ein Prinzip akausaler Zusammenhänge" (Synchronicity – An Acausal Connecting Principle)[4] in a volume which also contained a related study by the physicist and Nobel laureate Wolfgang Pauli.[5]

    Jung's belief was that, just as events may be connected by causality, they may also be connected by meaning. Events connected by meaning need not have an explanation in terms of causality. {Yes, but this is where they miss spiritual consciousness in all things and a wholism physicists like Bohm have expressed beutifully.} This contradicts the Axiom of Causality in specific cases but not generally.

    Jung used the concept to try to justify the paranormal.[6] {They do not know squat - so they ridicule while confirming their bias.}

    A believer in the paranormal, Arthur Koestler wrote extensively on synchronicity in his 1972 book The Roots of Coincidence.[7]"


    You will also find Koestler was a scholar Arthur C. Clarke communed with.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 12-08-2015 at 07:42 AM.

  3. #13
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    To illustrate the point - this just occurred when I looked for Koestler and Jung alongside Paracelsan thought in my browser. I had never read Peter Jordan before - nor this site http://www.strangemag.com/mysteryofchance.html. Yet, to me it seems to be saying what I just said and addresses perfectly (almost) the issue Wiki has with the paranormal. There are far more unbelievable events which have occurred to me or others I know - than the story of this church choir.



    "At some time or another it's happened to all of us. There's that certain number that pops up wherever you go. Hotel rooms, airline terminals, street addresses -- its haunting presence cannot be escaped. Or, you're in your car, absently humming a song. You turn on the radio. A sudden chill prickles your spine. That same song is now pouring from the speaker.

    Coincidence, you tell yourself. Or is it?

    For most mainstream scientists, experiences like this, however strange and recurrent, are nothing but lawful expressions of chance, a creation -- not of the divine or mystical -- but of simply that which is possible. Ignorance of natural law, they argue, causes us to fall prey to superstitious thinking, inventing supernatural causes where none exist. In fact, say these statistical law-abiding rationalists, the occasional manifestation of the rare and improbable in daily life is not only permissible, but inevitable.

    Consider this: from a well-shuffled deck of fifty-two playing cards, the mathematical odds of dealing a hand of thirteen specified cards are about 635,000,000,000 to one. (This means that, in dealing the hand, there exist as many as 635,000,000,000 different hands that may possibly appear.) What statisticians tell us, though, is that these billions of hands are all equally likely to occur, and that one of them is absolutely certain to occur each time the hand is dealt. Thus, any hand that is dealt, including the most rare and improbable hand is, in terms of probability, merely one of a number of equally likely events, one of which was bound to happen.

    Such sobering assurances don't necessarily satisfy everyone, however: many see coincidence as embedded in a higher, transcendental force, a cosmic "glue," as it were, which binds random events together in a meaningful and coherent pattern. The question has always been: could such a harmonizing principle actually exist? Or are skeptics right in regarding this as a product of wishful thinking, a consoling myth spawned by the intellectual discomfort and capriciousness of chance?

    Mathematician Warren Weaver, {Is this the Rockefeller Foundation Director of Science? - probably not.} in his book, Lady Luck: The Theory of Probability, recounts a fascinating tale of coincidence that stretches our traditional notions of chance to their breaking point. The story originally appeared in Life magazine. Weaver writes:


    All fifteen members of a church choir in Beatrice, Nebraska, due at practice at 7:20, were late on the evening of March 1, 1950. The minister and his wife and daughter had one reason (his wife delayed to iron the daughter's dress) one girl waited to finish a geometry problem; one couldn't start her car; two lingered to hear the end of an especially exciting radio program; one mother and daughter were late because the mother had to call the daughter twice to wake her from a nap; and so on. The reasons seemed rather ordinary. But there were ten separate and quite unconnected reasons for the lateness of the fifteen persons. It was rather fortunate that none of the fifteen arrived on time at 7:20, for at 7:25 the church building was destroyed in an explosion. The members of the choir, Life reported, wondered if their delay was "an act of God."

    Weaver calculates the staggering odds against chance for this uncanny event as about one chance in a million.

    Coincidences such as these, some say, are almost too purposeful, too orderly, to be a product of random chance, which strains somewhat to accommodate them. But then how do we explain them?

    Psychologist Carl Jung believed the traditional notions of causality were incapable of explaining some of the more improbable forms of coincidence. Where it is plain, felt Jung, that no causal connection can be demonstrated between two events, but where a meaningful relationship nevertheless exists between them, a wholly different type of principle is likely to be operating. Jung called this principle "synchronicity."

    In The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche, Jung describes how, during his research into the phenomenon of the collective unconscious, he began to observe coincidences that were connected in such a meaningful way that their occurrence seemed to defy the calculations of probability. He provided numerous examples culled from his own psychiatric case-studies, many now legendary.


    A young woman I was treating had, at a critical moment, a dream in which she was given a golden scarab. While she was telling me his dream I sat with my back to the closed window. Suddenly I heard a noise behind me, like a gentle tapping. I turned round and saw a flying insect knocking against the window-pane from outside. I opened the window and caught the creature in the air as it flew in. It was the nearest analogy to the golden scarab that one finds in our latitudes, a scarabaeid beetle, the common rose-chafer (Cetoaia urata) which contrary to its usual habits had evidently felt an urge to get into a dark room at this particular moment. I must admit that nothing like it ever happened to me before or since, and that the dream of the patient has remained unique in my experience.

    Who then, might we say, was responsible for the synchronous arrival of the beetle -- Jung or the patient? While on the surface reasonable, such a question presupposes a chain of causality Jung claimed was absent from such experience. As psychoanalyst Nandor Fodor has observed, the scarab, by Jung's view, had no determinable cause, but instead complemented the "impossibility" of the analysis. The disturbance also (as synchronicities often do) prefigured a profound transformation. For, as Fodor observes, Jung's patient had -- until the appearance of the beetle -- shown excessive rationality, remaining psychologically inaccessible. Once presented with the scarab, however, her demeanor improved and their sessions together grew more profitable.

    Because Jung believed the phenomenon of synchronicity was primarily connected with psychic conditions, he felt that such couplings of inner (subjective) and outer (objective) reality evolved through the influence of the archetypes, patterns inherent in the human psyche and shared by all of mankind. These patterns, or "primordial images," as Jung sometimes refers to them, comprise man's collective unconscious, representing the dynamic source of all human confrontation with death, conflict, love, sex, rebirth and mystical experience. When an archetype is activated by an emotionally charged event (such as a tragedy), says Jung, other related events tend to draw near. In this way the archetypes become a doorway that provide us access to the experience of meaningful (and often insightful) coincidence.

    Implicit in Jung's concept of synchronicity is the belief in the ultimate "oneness" of the universe. As Jung expressed it, such phenomenon betrays a "peculiar interdependence of objective elements among themselves as well as with the subjective (psychic) states of the observer or observers." Jung claimed to have found evidence of this interdependence, not only in his psychiatric studies, but in his research of esoteric practices as well. Of the I Ching, a Chinese method of divination which Jung regarded as the clearest expression of the synchronicity principle, he wrote: "The Chinese mind, as I see it at work in the I Ching, seems to be exclusively preoccupied with the chance aspect of events. What we call coincidence seems to be the chief concern of this peculiar mind, and what we worship as causality passes almost unnoticed...While the Western mind carefully sifts, weighs, selects, classifies, isolates, the Chinese picture of the moment encompasses everything down to the minutest nonsensical detail, because all of the ingredients make up the observed moment."

    Similarly, Jung discovered the synchronicity within the I Ching also extended to astrology. In a letter to Freud dated June 12, 1911, he wrote: "My evenings are taken up largely with astrology. I make horoscopic calculations in order to find a clue to the core of psychological truth. Some remarkable things have turned up which will certainly appear incredible to you...I dare say that we shall one day discover in astrology a good deal of knowledge that has been intuitively projected into the heavens."

    Freud was alarmed by Jung's letter. Jung's interest in synchronicity and the paranormal rankled the strict materialist; he condemned Jung for wallowing in what he called the "black tide of the mud of occultism." "
    Last edited by R_Baird; 12-07-2015 at 05:30 AM.

  4. #14
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    Here are three books of interest. The one about Fascists is of great importance in understanding Koestler because he fought for communal ideologies and was duped by Stalinism, while Jung was branded a Nazi as we have already exposed is a child's game like trolls and haters on the web today. The rhetoric about a European New Right or Nouvelle Edroit leaves me wondering if I should re-invigorate my political attacks on superficial NONsense such as words used to derail true plans in politics. There is no true meaning in words like Communism, Fascism and even words like freedom when none of them mean anything remotely like how people use them. I am a conservative liberal who wants creative productive equality and a plan FOR a better world who stands against most inalienable rights which no longer make sense (guns, bearing children, nations, religions). The book addresses De Gaulle (for example) - and yet not his handlers. He was a stooge - and Andre Malraux ran him almost as much as Edward Mandell House ran Woodrow Wilson. Jung's paranormal inclinations are fully used in these cases - more than Jung even knew. I had an argument this week with a person who does not know what a form of government called a Republic is - as differs from the Republican Party. People hate being told they KNOW nothing about what they are talking about - but they seldom go to check their so-called facts. Maybe in a few weeks he will realize his stupidity - I doubt it. He is the champion of Nassim Harabein and a cultish look into metaphysics. I just put a thread up here last week to deal with his alien intervention and black hole misunderstanding.

    That leads into another book herewith to be supplied. Michael Shermer is a hoot of a scientist - know nothing variety like his partner James Randi. I am frustrated more by those who say they agree with me and put the cloak of their own New Age nonsense over me in the process than I am by those who say science only supports the Toilet Philosophy of "if you cannot see it, it does not exist". So they flush away their lives and live dead from the neck up! But I agree with Shermer when it comes to flakes like Harabein and so many cults or money-grubbing so-called New Age authors. Thus I am a subject of attack from any point of view which is at all "belief" oriented. I similarly enjoy attacking Freud's "materiality" and "religiosity" that reeks of brainwashed insecurity and projects sexual phobias onto women.

    Jung and the Postmodern: The Interpretation of Realities

    https://books.google.ca/books?isbn=131779849X

    Christopher Hauke - 2013 - ýPsychology
    Jung reckons that what Freud meant by 'occultism' was virtually everything that ... Just the other week, at an academic board meeting in my own University, there ... a Chair of Parapsychology (funded by the estate of the late Arthur Koestler).


    The Borderlands of Science : Where Sense Meets Nonsense: ...


    https://books.google.ca/books?isbn=0198032722

    Michael Shermer - 2001 - ýScience
    Where Sense Meets Nonsense Michael Shermer ... 46 Jung, Carl, 204 Kant, Immanuel, 30 Keeley, Lawrence, 245-46 Keith, Arthur, 313-14 Kekule, ... 15 Klissouras, V., 92 knowledge filter, defined, 40-41, 65 Koestler, Arthur, 139 Kohn, David, ...


    Where Have All the Fascists Gone? - Page 83 - Google Books Result

    https://books.google.ca/books?isbn=0754671542

    Tamir Bar-On - 2007 - ýPolitical Science
    Stressing Arthur Koestler's arguments against any sort of intellectual ... following: the Prussian military specialist Carl von Clausewitz (1780-1831), ... 1 am thinking in particular of Arthur Koestler, whom I had the good fortune to meet in ... Mircea Eliade, Carl Gustav Jung, Claude Levi-Strauss, Gilbert Durand, David Miller. etc.

    That leaves the issue of Jung and his staunch democratic ideology with right-wing tendencies who blurted out his disgust with superficiality as another one of the reasons Jung and I are 'sympatico' or tied together synchronistically. This book also addresses De Gaulle calling for a deal with Germany in 1943 against the Anglo-Saxons. What an idiot!!!! He doesn't even have a clue who are Anglo-Saxons and where his bread was buttered - in 1943 though his ego was at risk of not being able to lead anything - anywhere. His constant cry of leading the Allies into Paris came true for him - but I do wonder why.

    Andre Malraux, who was the Propaganda Minister for De Gaulle's elitist desires in a country ruled by Merovingians, says these interesting words.

    "Art is a dialogue we have always carried out with the unknown. We have come to distinguish the contours of the unknown through the unconscious, through religion and magic and we may soon begin to understand such totally modern emotions as the feeling that we belong to the future, that our civilization is the sum of others."

    Jung on War, Politics and Nazi Germany: Exploring the Theory of Archetypes ...

    This book shows Jung worked with the CIA or what became the CIA and also tells us Lamarckian ideas are at work. That is very much kin to Koestler! Does the reviewer know how true it is - that what is thought - causes evolutionary human genetic alteration and mutation just as Koestler, Bucky and Cardin seem to know? Oh well - that too is in another thread. Here is a review of this book I probably should read.

    "Review

    'A remarkably detailed study of a controversial aspect of an indisputably significant thinker. Nick Lewin clarifies and contextualizes Jung's political outlook without seeking to excuse or exculpate, and presents a powerful argument for seeing Jung's political stance as more complex and sophisticated than it is often assumed to be.'- Professor Paul Bishop, University of Glasgow, author of "Analytical Psychology and German Classical Aesthetics" (Volumes 1 & 2)

    'Nicholas Lewin's study is a remarkable piece of scholarship that applies a strategic perspective to the subject of psychology and war. It provides a compelling exploration into the thinking of the renowned psychiatrist Carl Jung, who attempted to understand the upheavals that afflicted the world that he witnessed in the 1930s and 1940s. In particular Lewin explores Jung's ideas concerning war of the psychopathology, both in terms of his attitudes towards the growing threat of war that a revanchist Germany represented from 1936, and later, during the war itself, as a psychiatric consultant for Alan Dulles (future director of the CIA) in American intelligence's early attempts at profiling the enemy leadership using Freudian and Jungian techniques. This is a superb piece of innovative and critical analysis that offers its readers a mastery of Jungian analysis and subtle insights about the challenging world around us.'- M.L.R. Smith, Professor of Strategic Theory, Department of War Studies, King's College, University of London'

    This book is a valuable contribution to our understanding of Jungian theory and draws on a rich mixture of historical material, evolutionary psychiatry and Jungian scholarship. It offers us new perspectives to understand and use Jung's work. The book re-explores the internal logic of Jung' s collective theories and brings new thought to bear on the contribution of Geographical Determinism and the persistence of Lamarckian influences in psychoanalytic thought, and shows how they continue to distort our ability to bring Jungian psychology into contemporary psychological theory. By carefully unpacking Jung's collective theories the book provides the opportunity to refine some of the tools by which we understand, apply and continue Jung's work, and as part of this process Dr Lewin offers some theoretical innovations to archetypal theory, bringing in contributions from evolutionary psychiatry and meme theory to enrich his discussion.'- Dr Gottfried Heuer, Jungian training analyst and supervisor with the Association of Jungian Analysts, biodynamic body psychotherapist and trainer, in private practice in West London."
    Last edited by R_Baird; 12-10-2015 at 03:48 PM. Reason: add color

  5. #15
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    In reading about Hermann Hesse and Jung's relationship a few things stand out for me. Hesse was being psychoanalyzed by a student of Jung before he wrote Steppenwolf about a man whose wife is mentally ill and he lives a tortured aggressive pacifist existence.

    I forget if I read Steppenwolf before the musical group by that name took me on a "wild" trip or three. I do remember a near lifetime of interest in Abraxas and the authors says Hesse and Jung had made a God out of this concept addressing the continuum from good to evil. Certainly the wildest experience of my life was in the early 1990's when I met an adept woman who had danced as part of the Jerry Manfredi (ex-Doors) group Abraxas which opened on the world tour of Rush (from my hometown). She was a lover for Getty Lee who apparently had done her wrong.

    I know the Biblical writings about "I am (YHVH) the Alpha and the Omega, I am that which was and that which will be." had inspired the balance in the name of my company Archar Incorporated. It was an anagram of artistic and characterizations so my brother and other partners accepted the name despite my talk of occult means to draw energy in balance to the venture. The author of the following book talks about a meeting he had with the son of Hesse - and a discourse about his article or observation saying what the son said "You accused my father of plagiarization." Apparently this author thought Hesse had borrowed a little heavily on Jung's seven Gnostic books or sermons also addressing good and evil or Abraxas.

    We saw Alan Watts in the earlier video of recent origin say Jung's greatest contribution was the idea that in each of us is the mirror image of good, or the dark side imp and fiend. I thought to write this somewhat disconjunct stream of consciousness because it illustrates ideas come through inspiration and sometimes there is an earlier and similar concept which is a common source - rather than plagiarism. It also illustrates some Synchronicity which was even more driven home to me when I met my sister-in-law's cousin a month after getting to know this adept lady. He looked like her brother and I told him about her and her last name being Hawkins. He said his family was related to Black Jack Hawkins - the Privateer. She had said her family was as well. It is all the more amazing when you consider her family lived in Utah (Mormon) and his was in the Ottawa area of Quebec in Canada.

    Is YHVH and the alpha and omega (Teilhard's Omega Point) drawn from Abraxas which is probably far older and from Egypt or the Gaedhils who built the Great Pyramid? The I AM consciousness is said to be drawn from Buddhist missionaries teaching before Christianity got going, but I see the same concept in other places going far further back to Zarathustra and there goes my mind drawing Nietzsche (contemporaneous with Hesse and Jung). Dualistic insights such as the yin and yang of the Tao are in the Giza Plateau with the Sphinx being the feminine passive to the male dominant of the Great Pyramid. It is there in the name of Sol - o - moon and was there for as long as people (and apes) saw the sun come up, and the moon at night. So again I return to the Eliade and Jung confrontation about apishness or imitating vis a vis the Mandalas' imagery we addressed earlier in this thread. Is the scholarly mind forced to see things in black and white or go looking for demons like plagiarism - when it is all connected to something greater.

    Thus when I think and question all the supposed origins of some mystery school like Gnosticism or psychoanalytical gestalt, ZEN and whatever - I smile and wonder who these academic sycophants are? Can they think? Am I nuts? Is the two hemispheres of our brain another cause for all of this?



    https://books.google.ca/books?id=bqR...20Jung&f=false

    It is not just Abraxas or the Tao which causes me to see a continuum or Synchronous flow in consciousness between all things. I do not need the writings of any of these people to know what I AM or know. I remember conversations at age four with my father about Is God Dead (Nietzschean nonsense). But I suppose I forget a lot of my Troubadours or all the ways reading these people drew my mind into the soul from whence cometh all these dragons of eden (Yes, I know a title of a book) and elsewhere.

    "Carl Jung was reading Teilhard de Chardin during the last few days of his life. According to Miguel Serrano, when he visited Jung on May 10, 1961,



    "On the small table beside the chair where Jung was sitting, was a book called The Human Phenomenon by Teilhard de Chardin. I asked Jung whether he had read it. 'It is a great book,' he said. His face was pale, but seemed strangely illuminated by an inner light."

    (Miguel Serrano, C.G. Jung and Hermann Hesse: A Record of Two Friendships [New York: Schocken Books, 1968] pp. 100-101)


    Jung died on June 6, 1961."


    If I was still writing books - I would make this thread (and the one with Jung and Sri Aurobindo) into a new book. I might use the above colored excerpt as an inspirational comment for the reader to see - where the mind does go. Is yoga centering a contemplative experiment done only by those free from dogma (academic or religious)? Feel free to gain any inspiration you may accept!!!

    Who can say that today
    I did not do what's RIGHT?
    It's me who sleeps with me, tonight
    I think I may,
    I hope I might
    Endure in truth, and not to fight
    Others say I cannot DO
    More never thought to try
    Which brings me, I thus do cry
    That is OK, I'll not eschew

    At the moment after death
    Maybe ten minutes from a breath
    When soul has looked back
    To forward go along the track
    To open energy collective felt
    And ego then it will be melt

    Will I have done enough to KNOW
    No more to Earth for soul to grow

    "What then am I? And where am I? If, on the one hand, I take myself as I am to myself, I find sky and clouds, trees and houses, furniture, this sheet of paper and its inkmarks; and all of these, though primarily belonging here at the centre, I scatter as if by a centrifugal machine, leaving the centre itself unoccupied. If, on the other hand, I take myself as I am to others, I am a host of creatures of all shapes and sizes; and all of these, though they belong out there, I pull in to me here as if by a centripetal machine, leaving not one of them at large in the world. Which of these two pictures, equally odd and yet (it seems) equally unavoidable, is the true portrait of me?" - V. Hugo
    Last edited by R_Baird; 12-08-2015 at 07:41 AM.

  6. #16
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    The archetype to avatar issue is hard to disassemble because a person becomes obsessed and to some degree possessed by the knowledge they gain. I do not regard Hitler as an avatar like Devi did or Eckart with his Messiah implant, but I suppose there were times (for some people) when he was at that level.

    The blogspot which follows is very good, I am glad there is so much more addressing these things I dealt with in my books and involvement on the web for five years over a decade ago. It has many other quotes from Hitler and addresses what Jung wrote about Hitler as an archetype or avatar of Wotan.

    http://aryan-myth-and-metahistory.bl...an-avatar.html

  7. #17
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    If Jung's proposed experiment on divinatory methods (which I would like to be part of) were to ever get going it might run into backward causation or "You'll See it When You Believe IT" (Wayne Dyer and Don Juan) affects. I suggest there could be a duration period of energy through the entropic causation which would allow for few if any effects in direct relationship with the similarity of bandwidths in the sending and receiving entity. That would make it more likely you could affect your own time reference if you were in control of your own Attention Point.

    "Psi, "Backward Causation", & Synchronicity
    by Christian de Quincey

    Introduction

    Can the Present affect the Past?

    According to a recent report by psi researcher Helmut Schmidt and theoretical physicist Henry Stapp, observation in the Present can influence Past events apparently by using psychokinesis (PK) to counteract pre-recorded random events.
    At first glance, the data seem to suggest that an observer’s intentionality can change both the outcome and the initial conditions of a rigorously controlled experiment. Such a result indicating “backward causation” not only flatly contradicts "common sense" notions of the nature of time and causality, but also challenges classical laws of physics and the standard interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. Nevertheless, the anomalous data are there and require explanation. Stapp has proposed a new mathematical formalism for quantum mechanics that he believes accounts for the apparent “time reversal” exhibited in Schmidt’s results.

    This paper proposes that Schmidt’s data are open to a variety of interpretations. The notion of “backward causation” is by no means the most coherent. 4 explanatory approaches are presented and analyzed. Depending on certain assumptions regarding simultaneity, I propose that psi effects may call for non-causal, non-mechanistic descriptions of what Carl Jung referred to as "synchronicity". In short, psi may be more a matter of meaning than mechanism and a cue for Science to open more to heuristic and first-person methodologies.

    Apparent Evidence for "Backward Causation"

    Psi researcher Helmut Schmidt has been investigating the possibility of prediction and PK effects -- often on pre-recorded targets -- for decades (Schmidt, 1969; 1971; 1976; 1988; 1993). His results provide laboratory evidence for prediction (or precognition) of random events. And these, he says, imply that “Quantum Theory does not give -- at least for systems that include human subjects -- a complete description of Nature” (1969). Schmidt’s most recent data (Schmidt & Stapp, 1995) -- which suggest that observation in the Present can affect events in the Past -- challenge the completeness of standard Quantum Theory because influencing the past to result in a specified outcome is equivalent to prediction. If we can bias antecedent events in a chosen direction, then we can predict how things will turn out.

    Now according to the standard view of Quantum Theory, Nature is essentially random at the quantum level. Therefore quantum events are inherently unpredictable. It is -- as Schmidt says -- an “axiom that quantum processes cannot be predicted exactly.” In earlier experiments, Schmidt tested the hypothesis that it is possible for some individuals to score consistently above chance when predicting the outcome of random quantum events. His data over many experiments confirmed that indeed some individuals do demonstrate this ability -- thus contradicting the “quantum axiom” of intrinsic unpredictability (Schmidt, 1969; 1971).

    What is interesting about Schmidt’s latest series of experiments is that the focus is not so much on testing the reality of PK as such, but on whether it is possible to use PK to influence the Past. Even more intriguing is that in these recent experiments Schmidt was joined by theoretical physicist Henry Stapp as an independent observer. And Stapp was sufficiently provoked by the results to propose a new approach to Quantum Theory.

    In a joint paper, Schmidt and Stapp (1995) describe the experimental situation and state that:

    “The results of PK experiments with pre-recorded random events appear most interesting and most puzzling because the subject’s mental effort is made long after the random events to be affected have occurred. One tentative viewpoint (Schmidt 1978, Walker 1970) is that the subject’s mental effort could act backward to the time when the random events were generated and recorded. This would imply a non-causal mechanism in the sense that the effect (the biasing of the random events) occurs before the cause (the mental effort). It might be this element of non-causality that makes psychic phenomena so intuitively implausible and at odds with the known principles of Physics” (Schmidt & Stapp, 1995).

    In this short paragraph, the key elements and implications of Schmidt’s experiments are highlighted. They form the focus of this present paper. First of all, there are data confirming the efficacy of PK on pre-recorded events. In other words, PK influence occurred after the target event. Thus the second element, as Schmidt and Walker suggest: a tentative explanation would be backward causation -- that “the subject’s mental effort could act backward to the time when the random events were generated and recorded.” And third according to Schmidt and Stapp, this implies a “non-causal mechanism” where the effect comes before the cause.

    In this paper, I will outline the essential details of Schmidt’s experiments; discuss the interpretation offered by Stapp; and attempt to show that not only is this just one possible way to approach Schmidt’s data, but also that of the various alternatives the notion of “backward causation” is the least convincing. I will make a case that we may indeed need to investigate the possibility of some “non-causal” or acausal description for phenomena where mind and matter appear to interact. But that nature of such acausal phenomena is very different from Schmidt and Stapp’s suggested “non-causal mechanism”.

    Furthermore, I will argue that Schmidt and Stapp’s “non-causal mechanism” is actually not “noncasual” but simply an attempt to describe reversed or “backward causation”. And that the notion of “backward causation” is itself inherently meaningless.

    An Experiment With Time

    I’ll begin with an overview of Schmidt’s experimental situation, which I summarize here as follows:

    (1) A number of vials were filled with radioactive material which is known to decay randomly (i.e., it emits quantum particles such as electrons completely unpredictably).
    (2) The emitted particles struck a radioactive decay detector (Geiger counter), and the information of these “strikes” or emissions was recorded on a computer’s magnetic floppy disk. The recorded information was not made available to anyone at that time.
    (3) At a later time, this computer-recorded information was used to generate a random sequence of positive and negative numbers.
    (4) The random sequence of numbers was displayed to trained observers who attempted to influence the sequence in favor of more positive numbers.
    (5) Theory predicts that since the original event (radioactive decay) was random, the events it caused (generation of numbers) would also be random. That is, that the sequence of positive and negative numbers would be random, averaging 50 percent each.
    (6) According to Schmidt, when the number sequence was observed by trained observers who “willed” or “intended” positive numbers, statistical analysis revealed that more positive than negative numbers did, in fact, show up. The observed sequence was non-random.
    (7) Conclusion: (a) Intentional human observation influenced the generation of random numbers in a chosen direction; (b) since the number sequence was determined by a prior random event (radioactive decay), somehow the observation of the numbers induced a change in the otherwise random initial event. In short, the initial unobserved random event (E1) at time (T1) was overridden or changed by the subsequent non-random observational event (E2) at time (T2).

    In other words, the Present (T2) changed the Past (T1)! And this contradicts the accepted “law” of causality, which states that the cause always comes before the effect.

    Working with Schmidt, Stapp (1994) has proposed a new interpretation of Quantum Mechanics which replaces the usual linear equations (mathematical models for describing standard one-way causal relations) with non-linear terms. The non-linear equations allow for a system of causation in which the temporal relations between “causes” and “effects” need not follow the familiar one-way track of cause to effect (or of Past to Present). In other words, Stapp appears to have provided a mathematical formalism for a coherent quantum mechanical interpretation of the results obtained by Schmidt in his experiments.

    But, of course, nothing is ever quite that simple."


    http://www.stealthskater.com/Documen...ousness_34.pdf
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-20-2016 at 04:43 PM.

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