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Thread: G. I. Gurdjieff

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    You will be told Gurdjieff cannot be understood by his teachers, unless you do the disciplined dances and exercises. They are not able to DO what he did - and they are taking you down a garden path. But the garden has more fruit than most cults including other offshoots of the same basic system I have mentioned has created religions galore. The occult has many schools and I am not referring to the general occult system which includes every religion I know of, even though many are dumbed down so far you would have difficulty finding any wisdom at all. I am sure his system is found in places you can better understand and learn - just as I am about Mormons, Scientology and other Rosicrucian, Theosophical or purported direct channelled cults like Anthroposophy that you might be buying herbal and supplements from.

    You might think I am dense or obtuse even though I try very hard to explain myself and I answer any and all questions posed sincerely by sane people.

    If you find any of the people hard to fathom, there are others who say the same things in sweeter or softer ways that I have quoted often as well. Dan Millman and Wayne Dyer come to mind and so does Krishnamurti and quantum physicists like his friend David Bohm.

    You have no excuse for not learning enough to assist mankind in getting past the Dark Ages and denial of spiritual truths in academia.

    "What we have is a de-ifying thrust of Materialism. What we need is a re-ifying thrust for spirituality." - Dr. Janice Boddy U of Toronto, Scarboro. I used to teach myself about Love and karma in the library there shortly after it was built. You can never learn all there is about those matters from books alone, but you can prepare for something more than you otherwise will get.

    In my personal life I have done many things I think Pythagoreans did including healings and a lesser form of bi-location. I decreed a person born on the same day into my life. She is the Dr. of Psychology I refer to here. I put this post here because of the touch healing Deepak Chopra received from a thrice guna (Ayurveda deals with the gunas) doctor, named Triguna. It was known to Pythagoras as well as the Mudras and Mutras these cultures shared. Just explaining it to people with bi-polar disorder has allowed them to reduce their drug use to zero or only when stress rises too much to deal with through other means. Gurdjieff's dances caused the brain to focus in different regions or lobes. You can do it by closing your eyes and looking around the clock in nine separate segments finishing with the third eye in the center above your eyes. Stay 15 seconds in each zone.

    Sadly - for people like me, there is an Inquisitorial type of program or what this Dr. of Psychology I lived with called 'fear and jealousy'. She said that after talking with my older brother not some Christian trying to see the Devil Incarnate in me. Dr. Gray who wrote Men are from Mars (Women from Venus) wrote a book after that best-seller and he identified how one person will be turned into a 'psychic drain' in every family or organizational unit. This alienating agenda develops when a person expresses their experience even if that experience is lame and tame as far as Psychism goes. True Empathy requires an element of psychic development and not some superficial political correctness. Our world will soon get a lot better if Kaku, Zukav and others win the day.

    Deepak and Wayne Dyer were on the circuit together and wrote books which were inspired by the likes of Don Juan or the Toltec I think was the last Ovate or Druid. My Dr. of Psychology lady had been on the Stress reduction therapy convention circuit before Chopra and we lived not far from his clinic, but I never met him. Werner (EST) tried to hire her. We both felt TM was a little over the top or a cult. Wayne Dyer had sent me a package including his first book about the time she and I broke up and I met my Ogham mentors who altered my life path immensely. You can be sure I have had the same experiences Gurdjieff calls being a 'speaker' even if I do not make a show of it by talking in tongues or appearing to channel something. You can learn to trust your gut in major ways as each new reality builds your awareness, within and without. But as was said earlier in this thread, different people might need a different approach - Gurdjieff might help get you started and Krishnamurti might finish the deal after a few other stops along the way. Namaste!

    There are many places in the following links to add to your quest.

    Welcome ~Lucy's~ to the Truth: September 2012

    Sep 28, 2012 - The pattern was set, in that Watts did not hide his dislike for religious outlooks ... to know Joseph Campbell; his wife, Jean Erdman; and John Cage. ... (Mitrinović was himself influenced by Peter Demianovich Ouspensky, G. I. Gurdjieff, ... afterwards was able to meet this esteemed scholar of Zen Buddhism.

    [FLASH]The Alan Watts Media Project life works media Media ...
    Dimitrije Mitrinović. Mitrinović was a student of Ouspensky, Gurdjieff, Freud, Jung and ... Jean Erdman; and John Cage. ... Watts was not paid for his broadcasts; they did, however, gain him a large. following ... meeting Carl Jung. Watts and ...

    But there are exterior though connected forms like our chakras within (7) and without (5) that are memetically mimed and awaiting to influence our plastic potential evolution. Or is that an entirely too unthought - full thing to say?

    Jung can also be used to gain further insight but be careful of any quotes by those who say they take his full understanding to heart and remember the Dag Hammadi finds were Christianized which actually means it was Roman propaganda, and not fully translated in his era.

    " "A parallel form of alchemy also developed in the East, in which the liberation of the 'true man' from within was sought in forms of Indian yoga and Chinese Taoism....

    "For as science freed itself of religion in an Age of Enlightenment and work in the laboratory finally shed its arcane symbolisms... so the philosophical side of the work forfeit the creative medium - the living soul - of its projections only to become the inanimate preserve of secret societies such as the Rosicrucians....

    "Jung showed that the problem... of the body in general developed in Western alchemy as a compensatory undercurrent to the Christian conflict between the opposites, particularly the moral opposites of good and evil, which ever since the first day of Creation had been rent apart into upper and lower worlds. ... Alchemy represented the search for the divine spark of God's reflection in the darkness of the lower world, under the motto ascribed in antiquity to Hermes Trismegistus; 'as Above, so Below'....

    "As the power of faith upheld by the Church waned, it was left to psychology to uncover the source of this sickness in modern man, a sickness and distress which Jung argued can only be cured through greater knowledge and individual experience....

    "The opus of alchemy was essentially concerned with the union of opposites....

    "The stone, the lumen novum, arising from the conjunction of the reconciled opposites Sol et Luna was personified as the rounded, bisexual Anthropos and proclaimed... the saviour of the macrocosm and counterpart to Christ.... Because the experience of wholeness re-connects the individual with the universal life of the collective unconscious, Jung called the mandala 'a window on eternity', a moment of 'redemption' transcending the ego-personality as the whole transcends the part." 18

    Jung on Active Imagination: "Brief Extract from Analytical Psychology : its Theory and Practice The Tavistock Lectures (1935)"

    On the nature of tao - From Jung's Collected Works 6 Psychological Types (1921): "This psychological attitude essential condition for obtaining the kingdom of heaven, and this in its turn - all rational interpretations notwithstanding - is the central, irrational symbol whence the redeeming effect comes. The Christian symbol merely has a more social character than the related conceptions of the East....

    "According to the central concepts of Taoism, tao is divided into a fundamental pair of opposites, yang and yin. Yang signifies warmth, light, maleness; yin is cold, darkness, femaleness. Yang is also heaven, yin earth. From the yang force arises shen, the celestial portion of the human soul, and from the yin force comes kwei, the earthly part....

    "As a microcosm, man is reconciler of the opposites, Heaven, man, and earth form the three chief elements of the world.... Man is a microcosm uniting the world opposites is the equivalent of an irrational symbol that unites the psychological opposites.... The existence of two mutually antagonistic tendencies, both striving to drag man into extreme attitudes and entangle him in the world, whither on the material or spiritual level, sets him at variance with himself and accordingly demands the existence of a counterweight....

    "The aim of Taoist ethics, then, is to find deliverance from the cosmic tension of opposites by a return to Tao.""

    Unity in Yoga (one definition is union) and joining the yin and yang to get the ONE is a simple way to understanding all religious and philosophical debate. Eliade and Jung had 'words' over this and we have those letters here already.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-16-2016 at 12:16 PM.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Harold Coward has a book on docslide which addresses some of the carnal aspects of love in ridiculous Augustinian ways due to a dogma and deceit which continues to persecute women and men to this day. Sin equals self-imposed nonsense and worse but it is still necessary to overcome the idiot's who think otherwise if God's perfection and ours is to become real.

    "How does Augustine’s view of human nature play out in terms of perfectibility? Unlike in the Greek view where the body as a prison house of the soul must be shed, in Augustine’s view the body participates in the perfection and completion of human nature. Augustine describes this as the resurrection of the body in the last book of The City of God.

    As Miles notes, his vision as to what human nature is capable of is inclusive, sensual, and exuberant. “Human bodies, sexually differentiated, ‘risen and glorious,’ will be the ‘ultimate fulfillment’ of whole persons. But although there will be sexes in the resurrection, since sexes are not an ‘imperfection,’ there will not be sex.”

    As there is to be no sex in the resurrected state, Augustine concludes that our present sexual activity cannot be understood as a foretaste of perfection but rather a result of the present “state of punishment” of humankind.

    It is also clear that for Augustine perfection is postponed to another time and place. Although through conversion, made possible by God’s grace, we can progress toward it, full human actualization is to take place beyond human life and this sensible world. In Augustine’s vision of resurrection perfection, there is equality among all human beings and all injustice disappears. There is also equality among all aspects of human nature, all aspects of body and soul. The embodied soul will no longer be subverted by a disobedient will, and, says Augustine, “how much more beautiful will the body be there...where there will be unending eternity, and beautiful truth, and the utmost happiness.”

    Although Augustine’s vision of human perfection is enticing, it has not led Christians to attack problems of injustice and inequality in this world, or to work toward experiencing the beauty and goodness of sexuality in the present. Rather, it has provided an excuse, in the Christian West, for postponing the full actualization and perfection of human nature until the afterlife. In summary, Augustine held that due to original sin, humans had fallen from their original good and loving nature as created by God. “Departing from the love of God above him, man has followed the love of self and become subject to what is below him.”

    Humans have fallen by an act of their own will, which Augustine attributes to the desires of the “embodied soul” rather than to the body itself. This “fall,” however, cannot be reversed by a similar exercise of human will. That can only happen by a gracious descent of God’s love of the sort Augustine experienced in his own conversion. {Yea, sure - he got money and power to turn against reason and truth.} Only then can progress be made toward the perfection spoken of in the New Testament. But full perfection will not be realized until the resurrection of the body occurs in the afterlife. Augustine was opposed in his own lifetime by Pelagius, who argued that Jesus would not have commanded humans to become perfect if they were incapable of doing so—humans have the freedom of will to do what is right when they see it and Jesus has given them that example. Pelagius rejects Augustine’s notion of original sin as inherent in human nature. For Pelagius sin is simply a bad habit and, like any habit, can be broken by a deliberate exercise of one’s own free will. Thus, humans by their own efforts can perfect themselves. After some debate, the Council of Carthage (418 CE) accepted in their essentials the teachings of Augustine as opposed to those of Pelagius. This decision was given further blessing by the Council of Orange (529 CE).

    Although the debate between Augustine and the common sense approach of Pelagius {Whose teaching is supportive of the Celtic Christian Churches who were stronger than Rome at this time and did not even attend some of the councils doing bad things to women.} has continued to simmer within Christian thought, there is no doubt that Augustine’s position has dominated. Augustine’s continuing influence in the thought of Aquinas and Reinhold Niebuhr will be seen as we examine their understanding of human nature and its perfectibility.


    Born in Italy, Thomas Aquinas (1224–74) spent most of his life teaching at the University of Paris. Especially in the modern period, the writings of Aquinas have had a major influence upon the Roman Catholic Church. Aquinas’s writings on human nature form a small part of hisSumma Theologiae.

    His viewpoint was strongly influenced by Aristotle, Augustine, and by the Bible, along with the psychological treatises of Islamic and Jewish scholars.

    Aquinas’s method was to work one’s way in “from the external action to the internal capacity that explains the action, and eventually to the nature of the soul itself. We have no direct access to the soul, not even our own soul.”

    But he begins by asking, What is a human being’s ultimate end? Aquinas, following Aristotle, argues that the end or goal for humans is happiness, which is the reward of virtuous activities {Thus a taste of a religion that is not into Salvation through paying the church money in confessionals and special dispensations and a return to a more real religion.} and which ultimately consists in a vision of the divine essence.

    Of all Christian theologians, Aquinas is most dominated by the thought of the ultimate perfection of humankind. {And this would include men being capable of good acts and the need to do this FOR God to be realized.} In his view, human nature contains an implicit promise of the realization of this goal, but it is a goal that cannot be reached without the aid of revelation.

    Let us begin by examining Aquinas’s view of human nature and then move on to his understanding of perfection. {Here I see a disagreement with the pervert Augustine whose auto-biography Confessions was thoroughly inspected by the American Psychoanalytical Association. Augustine would have us believe the women ascend to Heaven and stay women and yet he says they are Harbingers of sin. It also does not allow for man to perfect his feminine or allow that there is any wisdom in the feminine.} In its use by Aquinas, “soul” means something quite different than what we usually mean by it today. “Soul” is the English translation of the Latin anima, which Aquinas, like Aristotle, uses in a wide sense. {Yes, Aquinas was forced to incorporate Aristotle into Church dogma or he and his lover and fellow alchemist Frater Albertus Magnus who was the Bishop of Munich would have suffered more as a result of a heresy trial over their homunculus which they called a 'talking head of Jesus" - truly inspired!}

    Soul is the first principle of life in all living things. Like Aristotle’s psyche, Aquinas’s anima is the first principle or component factor of plants, animals, and humans and makes them living things. A plant is capable of nourishing itself and of reproduction—it is the plant’s “vegetative soul” that makes these activities possible. Animals, like plants, are capable of nourishing themselves and of reproduction, but also of sensation; thus, we attribute to animals “sensitive souls” and not just the “vegetative souls” of plants. Humans are capable of all of the activities common to plants and animals (nourishing themselves, reproduction, and sensation) but also of thinking and choosing freely, which plants and animals cannot do. Therefore we attribute to humans a higher level of soul, a “rational soul.” In Aquinas’s view we accordingly find a hierarchy of souls or vital principles. This does not mean that animals and humans have more than one soul—for example, a vegetative soul in addition to their sensitive and rational souls. Rather, it means that a human being with one rational soul can not only exercise all the vital activities of plants and animals, but also the higher activities related to the possession of a rational mind. For Aquinas, the “soul” is related to the body as form is to matter. The human soul is the form of the human body, which means that “the soul is what makes the body a human body and that soul and body together are one substance. The human being is not composed of two substances, soul and body; it is one substance, in which two component factors can be distinguished. When we feel, it is the whole man who feels, neither the soul alone nor the body alone.”

    Similarly when we understand something, that is an activity we could not do without a “rational soul,” but it is the whole person’s body-mind unity that understands."

    We have much more on Pelagius and the pervert on this thread.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 02-21-2016 at 02:24 AM.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    You have heard about the chicken and the egg and wondered which came first. I have a good answer in my book Druid's Eggs where I address things like the so-called breasts on the statue in Eleusis or wherever you find symbols archaeologists might call 'breasts'. Do not look past the Earth Mother figurine found at Berekhat Ram not so far from Eleusis and Mt. Hebron or other Anatolian sites of wisdom. It has been controversially dated as the first art back to 350,000 years ago. In 2014 or thereabouts we found art in Indonesia date to over 500,000 years ago not far from Flores Island which I was writing about a lot almost a decade before the Hobbit was found there. Why was Flores Island so important before the Hobbit? It was archaeologically proven to have human artifacts dating over 825,000 years and is an island 50 miles away from any other land - and geologically has been that far away for two million years. I know art and the math required to go over the horizon by the stars is most important because Bucky Fuller said navigating by the stars required geometry and what would lead to trigonometry as well as construction engineering. Conceptual thinking in math and art are not so far apart. If man traveled from Africa a million years ago to a place from whence he went to Flores Island (Homo Habilis's brain size was recently re-calculated a lot larger) it seem reasonable he traveled by the stars and learned a few more things in those travels for far longer. Your guess might be two million years, mine would say mankind was already conscious and intelligent or civilized by then.

    The same became obvious to me when I looked at ephemeral charts and astrological castings therefrom. People communicated and maybe even had more refined ways of communicating such as the stuff we call ESP, the Neanderthal had a larger brain than modern humans before it was interbreeding with us about 170,000 years ago. Recent research and science has accepted these things - all of them are at least viable propositions and fly in the face of what I was taught in school - and I hear much of the same stuff was taught to my nephews. But Neanderthal did not have frontal brain lobes where we now know (and can map activity to prove) our speech comes from. Superior Parietal and other terms come to mind. Probably I was saying things like this before high school and certainly I was saying it by the end of high school and I had many more sciences connecting in with it, including Psychic points charts mirroring the lymph system including what was discovered in 2015, chakra comparisons to neurophysiological drawings or design of our nervous system.

    So I ask who is unconscious Mr. Locke?

    Everything you read about Gurdjieff, Masonry, Blake, Hibernians, Green Languages, Alan Watt, Jung and even Theraveda Buddhism and the Essenes is impacted in a major way by Pythagoras the Druid. It is not remote from your hypotenuses - just kidding.

    I consider the above link as mere trash from an historical viewpoint and you can read what it says if you desire. But this is an important connection to Pythagoras who did not invent anything major as I see it, he was a great integrator of more ancient knowledge which was being destroyed so Empire builders could pass themselves off as great thinkers and such.

    "Before the dawn of our modern scientific (and problematic) way of thinking, there were different ways of explaining the world, ways that may seem contrived, arbitrary and even superstitious to us. Pythagoras, a Greek contemporary of Buddha and Lao-tzu, devised a philosophy, now almost unknown, which shaped our Western world view from the pre-Christian era up to the beginning of the modern age. The Pythagorean theory of harmonics would guide Kepler in the 17th century to correctly determine the order of the solar system and presage Newton in the discovery of gravity before becoming a discarded artifact of scientific and cultural history.

    Below is the writing of Evagrius Ponticus in which he uses Pythagorean number theory and describes an enneagram-like figure. This text is part of a letter written as an introduction to Chapters on Prayer, a guide to contemplative practice (from The Philokalia {A better Bible with less censorship}, translated from the Greek by G. Palmer, P. Sherrard, and K. Ware, pp. 55-57):
    “I have divided this discourse on prayer into one hundred and fifty-three texts. In this way I send you an evangelical feast, so that you may delight in a symbolical number that combines a triangular with a hexagonal figure. The triangle indicates spiritual knowledge of the Trinity, the hexagon indicates the ordered creation of the world in six days. The number one hundred is square, with the number fifty-three is triangular and spherical; for twenty-eight is triangular, and twenty-five is spherical, five times five being twenty-five. In this way, you have a square figure to express the fourfold nature of the virtues, and a spherical number, twenty-five, which by form represents the cyclic movement of time and so indicates true knowledge of this present age. For week follows week and month follows month, and time revolves from year to year, and season follows season, as we see from the movement of the sun and moon, of spring and summer, and so on. The triangle can signify knowledge of the Holy Trinity. Or you can regard the total sum, one hundred and fifty-three, as triangular and so signifying respectively the practice of the virtues, contemplation of the divine in nature, and theology or spiritual knowledge of God; faith, hope and love; or gold, silver and precious stones. So much then for this number.”

    Obviously all reference to prayer and god is an appeal to the authorities who put Socrates and many more to death for challenging their control of sheep. When it talks about the zero and Indian numbers it is not aware that it was the Mayans who developed the math of zero and Chaldean systems were base 60 - and still functional though not as accurate. In short it is lying or is Christian propaganda.

    Ben has a good background in various spiritual disciplines and sees energy flowing through universal chakras to potentially manifest anything in love and balance as I see Teilhard de Chardin calling for in a "Conspiracy of Love" which requires as many people or learning styles as there are chakras, and perhaps more. I think it would be nice to try.

    "Over the years I have studied and been initiated into other esoteric, spiritual, and occult practices… These other traditions all reinforce the same universal principals I learned through the practice of Kriya Yoga. "Truth is one... Humanity gives it different names" In particular the popular emergence of Tantric Yoga, comes from the same Shakti tradition as Pranayama comes from. The practices are the same thing in essence coming from different schools…

    Many westerners are attracted to Tantra because they think it will improve their sex lives. It will in fact do that, but to remain focused on sex is a tragic road block to so much more potential! Sex is connected with our natural human survival DNA coding to procreate our species but it goes no further to do anything beyond that initial first step. Many of our religions do nothing to help that situation either...

    The bible teaches we have an unlimited potential to move mountains, and more… But the majority of humankind is not ready for anything more powerful than the ability to make babies. At least that was the case before the ten year evolutionary shift we experienced leading up to 2012. Now many are experiencing spontaneous initiations and experiences that took years of rigorous formal practice to attain in former ages. This trend is accelerating even more now in 2014

    There are many circuit breakers installed within us to stop at sex and go no further. This is for our own self protection because the act of sex turns the life force gasoline valve way up for a short period of time, sufficient enough to spawn a new independent life during conception. This is a natural ability and limitation built into us all from birth… If there were no limitations we would soon burn to a crisp as a species in the resulting chaos due to our inability to consciously handle and control the sudden increase of infinite power at any given time we may be in the mood for sex.

    Through regular practice of meditation, focused on absolute love, we will evolve and learn to develop responsibility, credibility, and a deep love and respect for everything. When that happens we begin to experience gift states of ecstasy far beyond a simple sexual orgasm, accompanied by powerful insights of knowledge and abilities to open the valve even more and focus more and more pranic energy without fear, for the purpose of healing, age reversal, sustenance without the need for physical food, and many other wonderful gifts of the spirit.

    A growing internal cosmic love provides a safe platform for this powerful transformation and growth. Continue to nurture and stay focused on that love, (Bhakti Yoga) and all will be fine! It is an easy path… You will learn to handle everything when the time comes and you are ready. Don’t push… let it flow, while gently holding back at the same time, not out of fear, but rather through knowledge, wisdom, awareness, love, and powerful intention… That’s the secret! Accompany that with lots of singing, blowing the shofar, dancing, and making love with everything in the universe. Ketivah VaChatimah Tovah!!"
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-09-2016 at 11:22 PM.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    But the Catholic Church is saying there was no evidence of Enneagrams before Gurdjieff. The liars are easy to defeat and all I have to do is let them disprove each other before I lay out what the facts are so you can see we are all still learning. THEY do not have any true answers and when they display some wisdom they soon contradict themselves.

    Perhaps just as important is that we see Carl Jung was a friend of Nicoll who was a Gurdjieffian for most of his life, and that also confirms Gurdjieff did not just assume everyone is an idiot - which any readers of Meetings surely knows.

    "Who is George Gurdjieff, and why is he having such a massive indirect impact on our churches today? Why in particular are ‘post-charismatic’ Roman Catholics, especially well-meaning nuns, becoming caught up in his questionable practices?[1] The Rev. Dr. Robert Innes, Lecturer in Systematic Theology at St. John’s College: Durham, England, tells us that the man credited with bringing the Enneagram to the West is George Gurdjieff, a Greek-Armenian from what is now the Republic of Georgia. While still a teen, Gurdjieff became immersed in occultic practices such as astrology, mental telepathy, spiritism, table turning, fortune telling and demon possession. Gurdjieff claimed that while he was in Afghanistan in 1897, he visited a monastery of the esoteric Sarmouni sect where he learned their mystical Sufi dancing, psychic powers and the Enneagram.[2]

    The massive popularity of the Enneagram in Christian circles, the 2nd most popular personality test after the MBTI[3], makes it well worth assessing what we are actually opening ourselves to. Advocates like Barbara Metz and John Burchill describe the Enneagram as “a sleeping giant, awakened in our times…”[4] Fr. Mitchell Pacwa SJ, Professor of Scripture and Hebrew at Loyola University, Chicago, has written a brilliant critique of Gurdjieff and the Enneagram, entitled “Tell Me Who I Am, O Enneagram”.[5] Fr. Pacwa’s studies of ancient literature and archeology show that there is no hard evidence for the existence of the Enneagram in any form before Gurdjieff."

    In Autobiography of a Yogi we have the young Yogananda confronted by a sage sadhu, and this discourse on ego and dualism erupted.

    “Truth humbly retires, no doubt, before such arrogant originality.” I was enjoying the discussion.

    “Man can understand no eternal verity until he has freed himself from pretensions. The human mind, bared to a centuried slime, is teeming with repulsive life of countless world-delusions. Struggles of the battlefields pale into insignificance here, when man first contends with inward enemies! No mortal foes these, to be overcome by harrowing array of might! Omnipresent, unresting, pursuing man even in sleep, subtly equipped with a miasmic weapon, these soldiers of ignorant lusts seek to slay us all. Thoughtless is the man who buries his ideals, surrendering to the common fate. Can he seem other than impotent, wooden, ignominious?”

    “Respected Sir, have you no sympathy for the bewildered masses?”

    The sage was silent for a moment, then answered obliquely.

    “To love both the invisible God, Repository of All Virtues, and visible man, apparently possessed of none, is often baffling! But ingenuity is equal to the maze. Inner research soon exposes a unity in all human minds—the stalwart kinship of selfish motive. In one sense at least, the brotherhood of man stands revealed. An aghast humility follows this leveling discovery. It ripens into compassion for one’s fellows, blind to the healing potencies of the soul awaiting exploration.”

    “The saints of every age, sir, have felt like yourself for the sorrows of the world.”

    “Only the shallow man loses responsiveness to the woes of others’ lives, as he sinks into narrow suffering of his own.” The sadhu’s austere face was noticeably softened. “The one who practices a scalpel self-dissection will know an expansion of universal pity. Release is given him from the deafening demands of his ego. The love of God flowers on such soil. The creature finally turns to his Creator, if for no other reason than to ask in anguish: ‘Why, Lord, why?’ By ignoble whips of pain, man is driven at last into the Infinite Presence, whose beauty alone should lure him.”

    The sage and I were present in Calcutta’s Kalighat Temple, whither I had gone to view its famed magnificence. With a sweeping gesture, my chance companion dismissed the ornate dignity.

    “Bricks and mortar sing us no audible tune; the heart opens only to the human chant of being.”

    We strolled to the inviting sunshine at the entrance, where throngs of devotees were passing to and fro.

    “You are young.” The sage surveyed me thoughtfully. “India too is young. The ancient rishis 3 laid down ineradicable patterns of spiritual living. Their hoary dictums suffice for this day and land. Not outmoded, not unsophisticated against the guiles of materialism, the disciplinary precepts mold India still. By millenniums—more than embarrassed scholars care to compute!—the skeptic Time has validated Vedic worth. Take it for your heritage.”
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-17-2016 at 11:51 PM.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    So who is this Nicoll?

    "Maurice Nicoll: Spiritual Giant, Gentle Genius

    Humanity is regarded as unfinished, incomplete, imperfect. We have the possibility of completing ourselves, perfecting ourselves; all that is necessary for this lies in us.

    — Maurice Nicoll —

    What would be your reaction to meeting a man of towering intellect, infinite kindness, commanding presence, and amazing insight into the workings of human nature, knowing that he was also the student and colleague of three of the greatest spiritual teachers of the twentieth century? If you are like us, you would be immediately attracted to him and want to study with him.

    That reaction has been the foundation of our respect, admiration, and love for Maurice Nicoll since we met him through his writings over a decade ago. The depth of his work has guided us in our efforts to ground the Enneagram in a simple, clear understanding of human nature in the hope that we can make it accessible to the widest possible readership.

    The Man and his Education

    Henry Maurice Dunlop Nicoll was born in Kelso, Scotland in 1884 and died in Great Amwell near London in 1953. Son of Sir William Robertson Nicoll, founding editor of The British Weekly and one of the most famous men of letters of his day, he studied at Caius College, Cambridge and received his medical degree at St. Bartholomew's Hospital in London. In the first decade of the twentieth century, against his father's wishes but with his blessing, he studied with Carl Jung and wrote one of the first books on Jungian dream interpretation. He said that encountering Jung was the first important event of his life. He and Carl Jung remained lifelong friends, and when he married Catherine Champion Jones in 1920 the newlyweds spent part of their honeymoon with Carl and Emma Jung.

    After serving in the Royal Army Medical Corps in Mesopotamia during the First World War under harrowing conditions, he established his practice on Harley Street in London where for many years he was known as London's leading neurologist and one of Britain's leading psychologists. There, it is said, he received people of both great and small station in life with uniform graciousness and kindness. News of his unique combination of wisdom and love spread slowly, since he published most of his books toward the end of his life.

    In 1921, while he was considering Dr. Jung's invitation to be his personal representative in Great Britain, he met P. D. Ouspensky, student and colleague of George Gurdjieff, and was immediately taken with his ideas.

    Gurdjieff, a contemporary of Jung and Nicoll, had spent the first forty years of his life searching throughout Asia, Africa, and the Near East to discover a valid conception of the meaning of human existence. In this odyssey he learned methods and practices for releasing latent powers in the human psyche for personal transformation. Calling his new method by various names — the Fourth Way, the System, and the Work — it is the way of balancing all three centers: thinking, feeling and doing. In 1910 he founded the Institute for the Harmonious Development of Man in Moscow, later moving it to the Caucasus and finally to Paris in 1919 to escape wars and revolutions. The central idea of The Work is that humanity is asleep and must awaken through self-observation; one must die to oneself and the thousands of attachments one has made in life so that a new self, a ‘Real I' can emerge.

    "In the Fourth Way, you live an ordinary life in the world, and life is your teacher. Balancing the three centers in the midst of daily life has a deceptively simple sound to it. In actuality, it is the most relentlessly demanding way of all. However, working with yourself in this way causes profound shifts in your consciousness, so that you no longer view life in an ordinary way. You come to realize that life has a meaning beyond itself." – Maurice Nicoll

    In 1922 Nicoll, his wife Catherine, and their infant daughter Jane moved to Avon near Fontainebleau in France where they took up residence at the Château du Prieuré and began a year of work in Gurdjieff's institute. Gurdjieff's methods included days filled with physical labor followed by long hours of grueling experiential spiritual practices, leaving little time for sleep. Nicoll became a carpenter, handyman, cook, and janitor in the community of thirty or so members. Since most of the people who participated in the institute were people of means and/or education, living a life so different from their ordinary habits created many opportunities for self-observation. After a year of intense study and practice, Gurdjieff closed the institute and continued his teaching by traveling throughout Europe and the Americas. Nicoll and his family returned to England and, while he was a sturdy man who had endured tremendous hardship during the war, he found himself close to death.

    When he recovered months later, he formed what was to become a lifelong friendship with Pyötr Ouspensky who lived with the Nicolls for several years; Nicoll became Ouspensky's student until, in 1931, Ouspensky commissioned him to teach The Work on his own. By this time he had synthesized this wisdom with his vast background that included the Gnostic literature, the Neo-Platonists, the Alchemists, some of the Indian Scriptures, the Hermetic writers, the Sufi literature, the Bible, the Chinese mystics, and the writings of Eckhart, Boehme, Blake, Swedenborg, and, of course, his years of study with Jung."

    Those names are a pretty impressive list - soi dosant.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 02-21-2016 at 01:23 PM.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    In order to explain the cultural aspects of what Gurdjieff and his Russian confreres like Thomas de Hartmann experienced in places like Munich during the rise of Hitler we need strong stomachs and equally strong chronovisors to see the past as it was. Hitler was a vital part of the Munich scene for much of his life, he drew a picture of the Munich Opera where de Hartmann's music played. Later he was involved in architectural re-designs of the whole city. The point I would like more information on due to the strong family ties de Hartmann had as well as Gurdjieff's involvement with Karl Haushofer who another Gurdjieffian named Pauwels told us was almost the true author of Mein Kampf is this: is Hitler a pawn in more ways than just his alliances with industrialists and world corporatism? Was de Hartmann and his noble family in the Bayreuth Circle of Wagner; that Hitler definitely was enthralled with to the point of being in their 'cult' according to some I have quoted?

    The unifying possibilities of quantum physics had just started to be understood in the works of Heisenberg and Bohr. The linguists were indeed seeing some historical connections which seemed to mirror ancient Norse or Wagnerian myths. An article addressing some of this in reference to Kandinsky might help us see past one school of thought or one university like the Frankfurt School and understand how Critical Theory and thinking makes sense to have survived so well. I think Jerry Cullum describes a starting point to understanding the mere idea of what became THE Final Solution and I think in-depth analysis of his whole article will describe why Wiligut and Himmler dug a very deep hole in search for the Hollow Earth; or other searches went forth looking for the 'cosmic ice' Professor Horbiger adopted from Aristotle.

    "Julie Mehretu, Matthew Ritchie, and Carroll Dunham are among the artists who have taken an interest in Kandinsky’s belief in a synthesis of art, science, and culture in the anthropological sense of the word (i.e., the overall conceptual assumptions underlying what sociology calls “society”). None of them have imitated Kandinsky’s visual approaches (there is an entire body of American painting from the 1930s and 1940s that openly draws its inspiration from Kandinsky’s composition and palette, but that is a separate, obscurely historic topic).

    What irrefutably separates these artists from Kandinsky is the level of optimism that accompanied his quest for a scientific basis for art. When he wrote in Concerning the Spiritual in Art that “When we remember that spiritual experience is quickening, that positive science, the firmest basis of human thought, is tottering, that dissolution of matter is imminent, we have hope that the hour of pure composition is not far away,” he meant that everything in the sciences tended towards the destruction of the bases on which the nineteenth century formed its arrogant certitudes: physics was discovering the basis in immaterial-seeming energy of a material world that was itself only an instance of fugitive moments of forms of energies consolidating (we might remember here that Kandinsky’s Russian Orthodox faith was based on the notion that matter itself is sustained by the “divine energies”); in the investigations of the new psychology, the mind was proving to be full of immaterial-seeming energies that belied the assumption that its underpinnings were open to the simple deductions of logical reasoning; and the cultural basis of world civilizations, plural, was turning out to be open to an investigation that assumed the value of European accomplishments but did not thereby devalue the discoveries of cultures that Europe found alien. Surely, given these developments undercutting belief in a unilateral progress towards an affirmation of a materialist rationality as the highest accomplishment of human evolution, the expectation of a Great Utopia was not intrinsically unreasonable.


    None of these lines of thought turned out as expected. The underpinnings of culture turned out to be undecidable; is culture an arbitrary construct, or is it intrinsically itself constructed by a biologically grounded individual psychology that leads human beings to make the same mistakes over and over again, no matter how hard they try to impose a logical order on a collective behavior that is grounded in instincts instilled by genetic structure? Is there any way of deciding whether mathematics is the inbuilt order of the entire material universe, or itself only a complicated human construct that gives us useful clues as to how to manipulate the universe’s structure, thus giving rise to technology? Is there such a fundamental disjuncture between the underlying structure of nature and the underlying structure of culture that there is no underlying unity between the two, or does nature trump culture every time, even if culture is transforming nature at such an unparalleled rate that culture can’t quite predict what nature is going to do to it?

    In other words, the culturally created artifice of civilization, and the biological basis of human behavior, and the processes of the natural world have all turned out to be more unpredictably related than seemed to be the case in the early twentieth century. That there is an underlying unifying order seems indisputable; the dispute is over the question of what that unifying order is, and whether human beings are fundamentally incapable of knowing it even when they think they know all there is to know about it. Are we a self-deceptive species that is very, very good at thinking that the positive effects of imaginary solutions to real problems demonstrate that the solutions themselves must be real?

    That’s the kind of thing that artists in search of a Gesamtkunstwerk grapple with these days, and none of these questions instill a sense of confidence in the possibility of final solutions beyond the grim types of alteration of the course of history with which those words are now inextricably associated. We can change the world, but the extent to which we can explain it remains in doubt."
    Last edited by R_Baird; 02-21-2016 at 03:00 PM.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    A totally on point book resulting from a one night conversation with Gurdjieff by Orage is available for free. We can find love in many places we might not think are romantic for sure.

    Well - not so free there after all. Here is the intro.

    "On Love. Freely adapted from the Tibetan by A. R. Orage was first published in The New Republic (New York) in December 1924, then as a 24 page book by The Unicorn Press in 1932, this has became Orage’s most anthologised essay. It is said that Orage wrote this text after a late night conversation with Gurdjieff, which he was introduced to by Ouspensky in 1922 – this is another incredible and somehow sad story you might want to dig into."

    Here is a free copy for me to quote something from and if you want - you can read. There are points of debate when I see him referring to a semi-science he does not fully understand, I am talking about genetics which has now become a full and major science with every layer under close scrutiny. Again we must allow for the era and times we are talking about and not throw out the wisdom in the integrations taking place as we read.

    " Without shame people will boast that they have loved, do love or hope to love. As if love were enough, or could cover any multitude of sins. But love, as we have seen, when it is not conscious love—that is to say, love that aims to be both wise and able in the service of its object—is either an affinity or a disaffinity, and in both cases equally unconscious, that is, uncontrolled. To be in such a state of love is to be dangerous either to oneself or to the other or to both. We are then polarised to a natural force (which has its own objects to serve regardless of ours) and charged with its force; and events are fortunate if we do not damage somebody in consequence of carrying dynamite carelessly. Love without knowledge and power is demoniac. Without knowledge it may destroy the beloved. Who has not seen many a beloved made wretched and ill by her or his 'lover' ? Without power the lover must become wretched, since he cannot do for his beloved what he wishes and knows to be for her delight. Men should pray to be spared the experience of love without wisdom and strength. Or, finding themselves in love, they should pray for knowledge and power to guide their love. Love is not enough. 'I love you', said the man. 'Strange that I feel none the better for it', said the woman.

    The truth about love is shown in the order in which religion has been introduced into the world. First came the religion of Power, then came the religion of Knowledge, and last came the religion of Love. Why this order? Because Love without the former qualities is dangerous. But this is not to say that the succession has been anything more than discretion: since Power alone, like Knowledge alone, is only less dangerous than Love alone. Perfection demands simultaneity in place of succession. The order is only evidence that since succession was imperative (man being subject to the dimension of Time which is succession), it was better to begin with the less dangerous dictators and leave Love to the last.

    A certain prudent man, when he felt himself to be in love, hung a little bell round his neck to caution women that he was dangerous. Unfortunately for themselves they took too much notice of it; and he suffered accordingly. Until you have wisdom and power equal to your love, be ashamed, my sons and daughters, to avow that you are in love. Or, since you cannot conceal it, love humbly and study to be wise and strong. Aim to be worthy to be in love. All true lovers are invulnerable to everybody but their beloved. This comes about not by wish or effort but by the fact of true, i.e. whole, love alone. Temptation has not to be overcome: it is not experienced. The invulnerability is magical. Moreover, it occurs more often than is usually supposed. Because 'unfaithfulness' is manifested, the conclusion is drawn that invulnerability does not exist. But 'infidelity' is not necessarily due to temptation, but possibly and often to indifference; and there is no Fall where there is no Temptation. Men should learn to discriminate in themselves and in women real and assumed invulnerability. The latter, however eloquent, is due to fear. Only the former is the fruit of love. Another prudent man, desiring, as all men and women do in their hearts, invulnerability in himself and in the woman he loved, set about it in the following way. He tasted of many women and urged his beloved to taste of many men. After a few years he was satisfied that nothing now could tempt him. She, on the other hand, had had no doubt of herself from the beginning. She had been born invulnerable; he had attained it. The state of being in love is not always defined in relation to one object. One person has the talisman of raising another to the plane of love (that is, of polarising him or her with the natural energy of love); but he or she may not be then either the sole beloved or, indeed, the beloved at all.

    There are, among people as among chemical substances, agents of catalysis which make possible interchanges and combinations into which the catalysts themselves do not enter. Frequently they are unrecognised by the parties affected, and usually by themselves as well. In the village of Borna, not far from Lhassa, there once lived a man who was such a catalyst. People who spoke to him instantly fell in love, but not with him, or, indeed, immediately with anybody in particular. All that they were aware of was that they had, after conversation with him, an active spirit of love which was ready to pour itself out in loving service. The European troubadours were perhaps such people."

    Is love without power and knowledge a bad or partial thing? He says they require simultaneity and maybe that is true, though for me I think I can commit to RIGHT thought now that I truly know my place in a cosmic sense.

    Is knowledge without love even possible I retort. What greater power exists than LOVE, divine and consciously knowing it is RIGHTEOUS? Oh yes, no simple thing - that love!

    So, he might say that my ability to do what I do is dangerous to me, and I would say yes, it is dangerous to the ego me, and still I give my love for any who will abuse me. Is that what I do? Or do I hide fearfully afraid of a something more, which I have yet to really KNOW? You cannot truly say, even if you think you know me after we have made love in all the ways love is possible. A vital part of the dynamic is expectation which can foster (or fester) jealousy. That brings me to another wise person and poet or Troubadour named Kahlil Gibran who says (In The Prophet) "There are those who as in yonder valley the heather breathes it's fragrance to the air. These are the children of god and through them he smiles upon the Earth." We are indeed most 'in love' when we easily and faithfully give our all to Nature (god or any other name for the same thing). But who among us knows our own ALL?

    Does Gurdjieff's dances and disciplines get one closer to their ALL? I do not think it is necessarily true - I prefer the Krishnamurti apparently opposite approach and yet I have done both approaches and probably another one or two. WAIT, you say! What makes you so wise that you can say you have better or other approaches than the greats of psycho-analysis, the occult arts, and religious disciplines? Well, for one thing in this thread we had someone say Krishnamurti has an opposite approach to Gurdjieff and that is not entirely true. He approaches things that way, and in other ways, as I see it. And I refer you to The Wonder Child which I often quote for expert psychological analysis of our Innocence 'Within". I say his wisdom is open and expansive just like we all can BE. I say Shakespeare understood the true Bard (Bairdic) manner when he said (and V. Hugo taught me): "To BE or NOT, that is the question!" And he also said; "To be or not, is the question THAT?" You have seen me say this sentence and others at least ten different ways. No way is THE way.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 02-21-2016 at 05:37 PM.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    There is a lot more in what Gurdjieff said that night to Orage, for some people love will always be sex and the power which each of our senses allows us to express. He apparently stayed in that state of mind most, if not all of his life. He is not a man I hold up to emulate though there were times I used some of his techniques to see how far it would get me. I am after all is said and done just too nice to play those games, even if I have been accused of just that once or twice (maybe more I do not know about). But my accusers did not really know me, and in every case I know of, I have thoroughly gone through the relationship seeking to know what I did wrong. There is one relationship (My "twin") where I will allow it was more my fault than hers that WE did not come to BE. But it was almost as scary as the case when I was just a 'boy toy' for an adept way beyond my know-ing or SEE-ing. Do not accept my characterization of that situation as truth, because I really do not know!

    Now if you are scratching your head and asking "What is he rambling on about?" you are entitled to say that. But as I quote another section of this treatise or book you might refer back to what I have said and say -"I see." Just remember I might say "You too are blind."

    Is this discourse like the wise men who are blind or blind-folded and feeling the parts of an elephant?

    "We are not one but three in one; and the fact is represented in our physiological make-up. The three main systems, cerebral, nervous, and instinctive, exist side by side, sometimes appearing to co-operate, but more often failing, and usually at cross-purposes. In relation to the external world it depends upon the system in charge of the organism at the moment what the response to any given stimulus will be. If the cerebral system is on duty—that is temporarily in charge of the organism—the response will be one. If the nervous or instinctive system is alone awake, the replies will be different. Three quite different people, each with his own ideas of how his organism should act, exist in us at once: and usually they refuse to cooperate with each other, and, in fact, get in each other's way.

    Now imagine such an organism, tenanted by three squabbling persons, to 'fall in love'. What has fallen in love; or, rather, which of the three? It seldom happens that all three are in love at the same time or with the same object. One is in love, the others are not; and either they resist, or, when the lover is off guard, make his organism unfaithful (driving the poor lover to lies and deceit or self-reproach); or they are forced into submission, battered into acquiescence. In such circumstances, which every candid reader will recognise, what is a lover?

    You imagine that you are continent because you have refrained from sex-relations; but continence is of the senses as well as of the organs, and of the eyes chiefly. From each of the senses there streams energy— energy as various as the man himself. It is not only possible but it is certain that we can expend ourselves intellectually, emotionally or sexually through any one of the senses. To look with lust is much more than simply to look: it is to expend one of the finer substances of which complete sex-energy is composed: something passes in the act of vision which is irrecoverable; and for the want of it the subsequent sex-life is incomplete. It is the same with the other senses, though less easily realised. In short, it is possible to become completely impotent by means of the senses alone—yes, by the eyes alone—while remaining continent in the ordinary meaning of the word. The chastity of the senses is natural in a few people; but by the many it must be acquired if it is to become common. Under the greatest civilisation human history has yet known, the capital of which was the city whose poor remains are Bagdad, the chastity of the senses was taught from early childhood. Each sense was carefully trained; and exercises were devised to enable pupils to discriminate the different emanations arriving from the sense perceptions intellectually, emotionally, instinctively or erotically motivated. From this education people acquired the power of directing their senses, with the result that chastity was at least possible, since it was under control. Eroticism thereby became an art, in the highest form the world has seen. Its faint echoes are to be found in Persian and Sufi literature today.

    Bluebeard and La Belle Dame are the male and female types respectively of the same psychology—inspirers of hopeless because unrequitable passion. The decapitated ladies who hung about Bluebeard's chamber were really about his neck; and they had only to let go to be free. Similarly the pale warriors and princes in the cave of La Belle Dame were there by choice; if an irresistible attraction can be called choice. The legends present Bluebeard and La Belle Dame from the point of view of their escaped victims, that is to say, as monsters delighting in erotic sacrifice. But both were as much victims as their titular victims; and both suffered as much, if not more. In such cases of uncontrolled attraction, power passes through the medium, who thus becomes formidably magnetic; and men and women in sympathetic relation are drawn towards him or her like filings towards a magnet. At first, no doubt, the experiences of a Bluebeard or La Belle Dame are pleasant and fortifying to self-pride and self-vanity. The other sex is at their feet. But when, having realised that the power is neither their own nor under their control, they discover that they too are victims, the early satisfaction is dearly paid for. The cure for all parties is difficult. It consists in the reeducation of the body and the senses. Love without divination is elementary. To be in love demands that the lover shall divine the wishes of the beloved long before they have come into the beloved's own consciousness. He knows her better than she knows herself; and loves her more than she loves herself; so that she becomes her perfect self without her own conscious effort. Her conscious effort, when the love is mutual, is for him. Thus each delightfully works perfection in the other. But this state is not ordinarily attained in nature: it is the fruit of art, of self-training. All people desire it, even the most cynical; but since it seldom occurs by chance, and nobody has published the key to its creation, the vast majority doubt even its possibility. Nevertheless it is possible, provided that the parties can learn and teach humbly. How to begin? Let the lover when he is about to see his beloved think what he should take, do, or say so as to give her a delightful surprise. At first it will probably be a surprise that is not a complete surprise: that is to say, she will have been aware of her wish, and only delighted that her lover had guessed it. Later the delightful surprise may really surprise her; and her remark will be: 'How did you know I should be pleased, since I should never have guessed it myself?' Constant efforts to anticipate the nascent wishes of the beloved while they are still unconscious are the means to conscious love.

    Take hold tightly; let go lightly. This is one of the great secrets of felicity in love. For every Romeo and Juliet tragedy arising from the external circumstances of the two parties, a thousand tragedies arise from the circumstances created by the lovers themselves. As they seldom know the moment or the way to 'take hold' of each other, so they even more rarely know the way or the moment to let go. The ravines of Mount Meru (i.e. Venusberg) are filled with lovers who cannot leave each other. Each wishes to let go, but the other will not permit it. There are various explanations of this unhappy state of affairs. In most instances the approach has been wrong: that is to say, the parties have leapt into union without thought of the way out. Often the first five minutes of the lovers' first meeting are decisive of the whole future of the relations. In some instances the original relation has been responsible for the subsequent difficulty of' 'letting go': it should never have been; or not have been in the precise circumstances of its occurrence. Mistimed relations always cause trouble. In other cases the difficulty is due to difference in age, education, or 'past'.

    One is afraid to 'let go' because it appears to be the last hope, or because too much time has already been spent on it, or because it has been the best up to date, or because his 'ideal', created by education, demands eternal fidelity even where it is not possible, because it is not desired by both; or because one is over-sensitive from past experience and cannot face another failure, or because the flesh being willing the spirit is weak, i.e. neither party can use a knife; or because circumstances are unfavourable, i.e. the parties must continue to see each other; or because of imagination, as when one or the other pictures the happiness of the other without him or her. There are a thousand explanations, and every one of them, while sufficient as a cause, is quite inadequate as reason, the fact being that when one of the parties desires to separate, the other's loveduty is to 'let go'. Great love can both let go and take hold. Jealousy is the dragon in paradise; the hell of heaven; and the most bitter of the emotions because associated with the sweetest. There is a specific against jealousy, namely, conscious love; but this remedy is harder to find than the disease is to endure."
    Last edited by R_Baird; 02-21-2016 at 06:00 PM.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Joseph Campbell saw the rain dances work in Gallup, New Mexico (and I have been part of the affecting rain scenario - for sure). His wife was a top flight dancer in an interpretative school you can say she created. I have just put her name next to Gurdjieff in my browser and I get Jung as well. I know she met Jung at Eranos and I was probably grokked by Campbell at an airport. You might not believe how much knowledge can pass between minds or souls in a simple glance as Gurdjieff just addressed - but I know. My senses tingle in anticipation to feel these people, but I must take a break and eat before again taking one more step closer to "The waves of the marvellous" that V. Hugo (Head of a different Priory to the one Gurdjieff established in Paris.) wrote about in his appreciation of wee Willy Shake-hes-spear (And yes, that is one of 17 ways his name was spelled in his lifetime.).

    Donald L. Simons on Vedanta, Buddhism: ALAN WATTS

    Mar 19, 2010 - (Mitrinović was himself influenced by Peter Demianovich Ouspensky, G. I. Gurdjieff, and the ... The pattern was set, in that Watts did not hide his dislike for religious ... Joseph Campbell, Campbell's wife Jean Erdman, and John Cage. ... of Europe with his father, meeting the renowned psychiatrist Carl Jung.

    So the above mostly addressed Alan Watts and we all should know he is or was a prodigy and star of the culture we are now involved in scientifically and spiritually getting to know. It does not highlight a great association with Gurdjieff and his exposure was through Ouspensky in any event, and even that was second hand so other than the fact that Watts was capable of knowing what they all talked or wrote about I do not consider him a follower of any approach other than his Zen which is fluid and open at all times, anyway.

    Some day I will create a thread on just his influences, he deserves it.

    "The pattern was set, in that Watts did not hide his dislike for religious outlooks that he decided were dour, guilt-ridden, or militantly proselytizing—no matter if they were found within Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, or Buddhism.

    All seemed to go reasonably well in his next role, as Episcopalian priest (beginning in 1945, aged 30), until an extramarital affair resulted in his young wife having their marriage annulled. It also resulted in Watts leaving the ministry by 1950. He spent the New Year getting to know Joseph Campbell, Campbell's wife Jean Erdman, and John Cage.

    In the spring of 1951, Watts moved to California, where he joined the faculty of the American Academy of Asian Studies in San Francisco. Here he taught alongside Saburō Hasegawa, Frederick Spiegelberg, Haridas Chaudhuri, lama Tokwan Tada, and various visiting experts and professors. Hasegawa, in particular, served as a teacher to Watts in the areas of Japanese customs, arts, primitivism, and perceptions of nature.

    Watts also studied written Chinese and practiced Chinese brush calligraphy with Hasegawa as well as with some of the Chinese students who enrolled at the Academy. While Watts was noted for an interest in Zen Buddhism, with its origins in China, his reading and discussions delved into Vedanta, "the new physics," cybernetics, semantics, process philosophy, natural history, and the anthropology of sexuality.

    After heading up the Academy for a few years, Watts left the faculty for a freelance career in the mid 1950s. In 1953, he began what became a long-running weekly radio program at Pacifica Radio station KPFA in Berkeley, which continued until his death in 1973. Like other volunteer programmers at the listener-sponsored station, Watts was not paid for his broadcasts; they did, however, gain him a large following in the San Francisco Bay Area. These programs were later carried by additional Pacifica stations, and were re-broadcast many times over in the decades following his death. The original tapes are currently held by the Pacifica Radio Archives, based at KPFK in Los Angeles, and at the Electronic University archive founded by his son, Mark Watts ( (This writer has collected 134 of the Watts audio tapes over the years, along with the six Watts "talks" that Mark Watts videotaped in 1973, near the end of his dad's life. There is a good early set of videotapes called "4x4" which consists of four tapes, 110 minutes each, produced by KQET in San Francisco, which are of Watts, in his middle years, discussing Taoism and Buddhism.)

    In 1957 when 42, Watts published one of his best known books, The Way of Zen, which focused on philosophical explication and history. Besides drawing on the lifestyle and philosophical background of Zen, in India and China, Watts introduced ideas drawn from general semantics (directly from the writings of Alfred Korzybski and also from Norbert Wiener's early work on cybernetics, which had recently been published). Watts offered analogies from cybernetic principles possibly applicable to the Zen life. The book sold well, eventually becoming a modern classic, and helped widen his lecture circuit. {I see a lot of NeuroLinguistics in this and I believe through Campbell and Esalen we got some things used in MKULTRA which I can develop through a personal association with one of Ram Dass's "controls" or fellow researcher.}

    Around this time, Watts toured parts of Europe with his father, meeting the renowned psychiatrist Carl Jung. In relation to modern psychology, Watts's instincts were closer to Jung's or Abraham Maslow's than to those of Freud. {I am sure he knew Maslow stole his hierarchy of needs from Yoga, and did not even do a decent job of it. As we covered Jung we saw Eliade also had issues with Jung on Yogas - yes, there are many Yogas.}

    When he returned to the United States, he began to dabble in psychedelic drug experiences, initially with mescaline given to him by Dr. Oscar Janiger. He tried LSD several times with various research teams led by Drs. Keith Ditman, Sterling Bunnell, and Michael Agron. He also tried marijuana and concluded that it was a useful and interesting psychoactive drug that gave the impression of time slowing down. Watts’ books of the 60s reveal the influence of these chemical adventures on his outlook. He would later comment about psychedelic drug use, "When you get the message, hang up the phone." {Good advice!}

    For a time, Watts came to prefer writing in the language of modern science and psychology (Psychotherapy East and West is a good example), finding a parallel between mystical experiences and the theories of the material universe proposed by 20th-century physicists. He later equated mystical experience with ecological awareness, and typically emphasized whichever approach seemed best suited to the audience he was addressing. {Because all approaches can be good and it is just a case of DOing anything with all attempts co-ordinated on solving a problem or not even starting that issue resolution until others which can be solved are in FACT solved- IMHO.}

    Watts's explorations and teaching brought him into contact with many noted intellectuals, artists, and American teachers in the human potential movement. His friendship with poet Gary Snyder nurtured his sympathies with the budding environmental movement, to which Watts gave philosophical support. He also encountered Robert Anton Wilson, who credited Watts with being one of his 'Light[s] along the Way' in the opening appreciation of Cosmic Trigger.

    Though never affiliated for long with any one academic institution, he did have a fellowship for several years at Harvard University. He also lectured to many college and university students. His lectures and books gave Watts far-reaching influence on the American intelligentsia of the 1950s-1970s, but Watts was often seen as an outsider in academia. When questioned sharply by students during his talk at U.C. Santa Cruz in 1970, Watts responded that he was not an academic philosopher, but rather "a philosophical entertainer."

    He often said that he wished to act as a bridge between the ancient and the modern, between East and West, and between culture and nature. {No doubt this is a big part of why people compare me and him.}

    In several of his later publications, especially Beyond Theology and The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are, Watts put forward a worldview, drawing on Hinduism, Chinese philosophy, pantheism, and modern science; in which he maintains that the whole universe consists of a cosmic self playing hide-and-seek (Lila), hiding from itself (Maya) by becoming all the living and non-living things in the universe, forgetting what it really is; the upshot being that we are all IT in disguise. In this worldview, Watts asserts that our conception of ourself as an "ego in a bag of skin" is a myth; the entities we call the separate "things" are merely processes of the whole. {And that is a good POV but not what I think he actually believed. I think he always challenged himself like Bucky Fuller said - "When I find myself complacent in the knowledge I have, I bite my tongue." Do not take this as a direct quote elsewhere without checking - it might not be an exact quote.}

    Wikipedia contributors. "Alan Watts." 11 Mar. 2010. Web. 12 Mar. 2010.

    posted by Donald L. Simons"
    Last edited by R_Baird; 02-21-2016 at 07:55 PM.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Many definitions of Love and Empathy are hugely flawed and will actually take a person who accepts them away from true empathy or love. I will say Gurdjieff was a slow learner when it came to empathy despite his gifts in mental telepathy. You can agree or not, I am open to my being wrong, he was not quote that open (an example of why I say it).

    Steven Covey takes it only so far in his books but it is useful how he describes the detailed approaches and conflict resolution. This is more what we want to achieve an understanding of or about, I think.

    "Empaths Sense Deep Emotions

    Empathy is a feeling of another's true emotions to a point where an empath can relate to that person by sensing true feelings that run deeper than those portrayed on the surface. People commonly put on a show of expression. This is a learned trait of hiding authentic expression in an increasingly demanding society.

    An empath can sense the truth behind the cover and will act compassionately to help that person express him/herself, thus making them feel at ease and not so desperately alone.

    Empaths experience empathy towards family, children, friends, close associates, complete strangers, pets, plants and inanimate objects. Empathy is not held by time or space. Thus, an empath can feel the emotions of people and things at a distance. Some are empathic towards animals (ie: The Horse Whisperer), to nature, to the planetary system, to mechanical devices or to buildings etc. Others will have a combination of the above.

    Empaths Have Deep Sense of Knowing

    Empaths are highly sensitive. This is the term commonly used in describing one's abilities (sensitivity) to another's emotions and feelings. Empaths have a deep sense of knowing that accompanies empathy and are often compassionate, considerate, and understanding of others.

    There are also varying levels of strength in empaths which may be related to the individual's awareness of self, understanding of the powers of empathy, and/or the acceptance or non-acceptance of empathy by those associated with them, including family and peers. Generally, those who are empathic grow up with these tendencies and do not learn about them until later in life.

    Empathy is Inherited

    Empathy is genetic, inherent in our DNA, and passed from generation to generation. {Yes, but everyone has elements of all these things and we can learn from each other to be better = see Howard Gardner's Learning Styles.} It is studied both by traditional science and alternative healing practitioners. Empathy has both biological/genetic and spiritual aspects. Empaths often possess the ability to sense others on many different levels. From their position in observing what another is saying, feeling and thinking, they come to understand another. They can become very proficient at reading another person's body language and/or study intently the eye movements. While this in itself is not empathy, it is a side-shoot that comes from being observant of others. In a sense, empaths have a complete communication package. {And those who abuse it are just about the worst empaths as far as I am concerned - see Gurdjieff.}

    How Empathy Works

    While there is much we don't yet understand about how empathy works, we do have some information. Everything has an energetic vibration or frequency and an empath is able to sense these vibrations and recognize even the subtlest changes undetectable to the naked eye or the five senses.

    Words of expression hold an energetic pattern that originates from the speaker. They have a specific meaning particular to the speaker. Behind that expression is a power or force-field, better known as energy. For example, hate often brings about an intense feeling that immediately accompanies the word. The word hate becomes strengthened with the speaker's feeling. It is that person's feelings (energy) that are picked up by empaths, whether the words are spoken, thought or just felt without verbal or bodily expression.

    From Christel Broederlow

    There are different types of empaths who employ different psychic empathic traits.

    These are the 10 levels of the empath:

    Psychometry - the empathic ability to receive energy, information and impressions from objects, photographs or places
    Telepathy - the empathic ability to read people's thoughts
    Mediumship - the empathic ability to feel the presence and energies of spirits
    Physical Healing - the empathic ability to feel other people's physical symptoms in your own body (and often the ability to heal, transform or transmute them)
    Emotional Healing - the empathic ability to feel another person's emotions
    Animal Communication - the empathic ability to hear, feel and communicate with animals
    Nature - the empathic ability to read, feel and communicate with nature and with plants
    Geomancy - the empathic ability to read the energy of places and of the land - geomancers can feel the energies of the Earth, such as Ley lines. They can also get headaches, pain or anxiety before earthquakes or other disasters occur anywhere on the planet.
    Precognition - the empathic ability to feel when something important is about to happen (often this can be a feeling of inexplicable dread or doom)
    Claircognizance or Knowing - the empathic ability to feel what needs to be done in any given circumstance, often accompanied by a feeling of peace and calm, even in the midst of a crisis

    Psychic empathic traits not only involve the ability to receive energy, but also include the ability to heal in many cases. For this reason, an empath's life path is best suited to the healing arts, whether it is in the field of healthcare or counseling, or working with children, plants, animals, or even healing places through design and renovation. There are many different paths for how to become an empathic energy healer - you just need to determine which characteristics and levels of an empath resonate with you most. When you have a positive outlet for the psychic abilities of being empathic, you can experience peace and fulfillment. This allows you to overcome the overwhelming feelings of why an empath feels anxiety.

    Meditation can be helpful for anyone to achieve a state of peace, but what is even more important for those with psychic empathic traits is to maintain constant grounding and protection. You must visualize yourself surrounded by a bubble or blanket of white light that shields and protects you from external energies. If you are extremely sensitive, you may want to increase these boundaries of protection by imagining a rainbow of layers around you, starting with a bubble of red light surrounding your body, followed by a layer of orange light, then yellow around that, then green, then blue, then indigo, then a layer of violet light, and finally a layer of white light around them all. It is also important to envision yourself grounded and connected to the Earth so you can remain balanced, stable and secure. It is helpful to use the affirmation "I am willing to receive all that is for the highest and best good of all for me to know, and I am protected and shielded from all else at all times".

    Remember that those with psychic empathic traits are not only able to receive and pick up energy, but they can also project healing energy. The reason that empaths pick up on energy and information in the first place is because they have the power to do something about it.

    One of the easiest methods for how to become an empathic energy healer is simply by using your intention. When you receive feelings from others, or even from the whole world, you can reverse the polarity and send out healing energy. Close your eyes, imagine that there is a vast sun above you that is sending down a beam of light into your heart and down into your hands. With all of your will and intent, send that light out from your heart and your hands, and direct it to wherever it needs to go for the highest and best good of all.

    This is what will give you peace. The future is not set in stone and we are not victims. We have the gift of free will and the power to change, so we must not be afraid, even when it seems overwhelming.

    Source Grace & Grace Associates Consulting, Inc"
    Last edited by R_Baird; 02-21-2016 at 08:24 PM.

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