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Thread: G. I. Gurdjieff

  1. #21
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    Jan 2015
    There can be a lot of doubt about Gurdjieff being an adept and I have expressed various doubts about his character and relations with women as well as certain political involvements.

    The larger issue of abuse by occultists also exists. He met and probably bested Crowley at Crowley's low point and on his own turf. Crowley had become a serious druggie and his powers are less than what I would consider righteous at any point, even when he headed up the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn which included powerful people from all disciplines and inner sanctums of those who will never appear on their public membership. They bragged about having achieved higher numbered levels of knowledge beyond the 99 or most puissant you will hear associated with Crowley. I do not know enough about 137 or other numbers and I am not an expert in Gematria. I would like to think Gurdjieff never bought into demons although his Beelzebub and life was on the edge of what humans create which people call demons.

    I see Gurdjieff as a man who became a gifted savant and teacher of Righteous enlightenment and Crowley never did.

    Here is a little Thelema from a website addressing some of the Crowleyan crap. Remember there have been good people like Robert Anton Wilson who benefitted from Thelema and many great people of worldwide acclaim who hung with him in the Inner Sanctums at the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. His personal secretary at that time was Israel Regardie and Regardie's courses are perhaps the best education you can get. There is no taint on Yeats I have found who we have addresses in many threads including the thread on the Golden Dawn and him. But 'be ye wise' and careful among those who seek power and know if you allow fear to be your guide they will have a grip or entryway to places you should not let them go. I quote a little from it, but I also say it was his way of duping people - and himself. That does not mean you cannot learn a great deal from Crowley.

    "“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.”

    1. Here you find terms such as “church”; “gods”; “magick”; “saints”; “power”; “worship”; “devotion”; and so on. Here nothing is as it seems.

    2. Here divine genius may be realized within; and achieving that, one may expand the mind without, to the realization of the infinite, via the union of Samadhi.

    3. Here is atheistic Gnosis of Apotheosis.

    4. Here all religious approaches may be modified to fit an overarching Thelemic Law designed to serve the interests of woman & man, not an idealistic, immaterial god.

    5. Here saints are those who have realized some measure of genius, be it artful, musical, scientific, or expressive — whatever have you.

    6. Here worship-like practices are utilized neither for propitiation nor for superstitious aims, but to open various pathways of the mind for (a) the realization of hidden potential inherent in all, and (b) the transmission of praeterhuman awareness on a cosmic level through that open channel of greater self-awareness within.

    7. Here magick is not the bewitching of cattle but the stirring of Supernal Potential, and vitalization of creativity as well as realization of greater self-empowerment.

    8. Here sacraments are not impossible elements of spiritual contrition, but rather devices of celebration of the natural human/animal condition.

    9. Here is no place for outrageous spiritual superstitions.

    10. Here ideas like sacrifice are abhorred as blasphemous self-abnegation. Here happiness, bliss, merriment, freedom, promiscuous indulgence, are virtues.

    11. Here is no one way. Here is no authority. Welcome to the Holy Thelemic Church.

    “Love is the law, love under will.”"

  2. #22
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    Jan 2015
    To what degree Gurdjieffians Wright and Baruch influenced FDR as his 'handlers' and partners in the Oak Island company we may never know. I have been onto it for a long time and I am not certain. The same can be said about Gurdjieff, Haushofer, Pauwels and others connecting with Hitler. There are events like Hitler's dream that saved his life, and how Eckart declared him to be the Messiah on first meeting him which make me think people were handling or occultly managing Hitler for a long time. No one has (yet) declared Gurdjieff was an immortal or built him into some other-worldly saint, but there are people close to doing that I am sure. Crowley claimed a soul continuance named Perdurabo he was part of and I have addressed this very real occult use or abuse from many angles here including what L. Ron Hubbard, Jr., said about his father and Crowley's death which was the day Scientology truly began.

    I will give you something from a decidedly Christian (not real Christ followers but the Empire or born again types) now. You might have to browse for the link as I just did - it is a big site with lots of followers on the web.

    It addresses St. Germain and has the thoughts of Manly Hall. The Betsy Ross fiction is included and know it is fiction for certain. St. Germain did a great deal more in France and England. He probably bi-located as the Professor they speak about here. Jefferson gave credit to Paine for the Declaration and I do not accept the flag fiction, the founding of Phremasonry and Rosicrucianity they credit to Bacon (Yes, a particular lodge or segment can be his.) or many other things this site says. Bacon did own land near Oak Island. But do read it.

    "Throughout his life, Francis Bacon's fondest hope was the, creation of a Utopia across the Atlantic, the realization of his "New Atlantis" in the form of a society of free men, governed by sages and scientists, in which his Freemasonic and Rosicrucian principles would govern the social, political and economic life of the new nation. It was for this reason why, as Lord Chancellor, he took such an active interest in the colonization of America, and why he assisted in the founding of Jamestown, Virginia. For it was in America, through the pen of Thomas Paine and the writings of Thomas Jefferson, as well as through the revolutionary activities of his many Rosicrucian-Freemasonic followers, most prominent among whom were George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, that he hoped to create a new nation dedicated to his political philosophy.

    In his Secret Destiny of America, Manly Hall, Bacon's most understanding modern scholar, refers to the appearance in America, prior to the signing of the Declaration of Independence in 1776, of a mysterious Rosicrucian philosopher, a strict vegetarian who ate only foods that grew above the ground, who was a friend and teacher of Franklin and Washington and who seemed to have played an important role in the founding of the new republic. Why most historians failed to mention him is a puzzle, for that he existed is a certainty.

    He was known as the "Professor." Together with Franklin and Washington, he was a member of the committee selected by the Continental Congress in 1775 to create a design for the American Flag. The design he made was accepted by the committee and given to Betsy Ross to execute into the first model.

    A year later, on July 4, 1776, this mysterious stranger, whose name nobody knew, suddenly appeared in Independence Hall and delivered a stirring address to the fearful men there gathered, who were wondering whether they should risk their lives as traitors by affixing their names to the memorable document which Thomas Jefferson wrote and of whose ideals Francis Bacon, founder of Freemasonry and Rosicrucianism, was the true originator."

    If St. Germain had a STONE as I am almost certain he did, there is every reason to believe he could also do this Bi-location as many science types like Hecateus report Pythagoras did long ago. Padre Pio has been made a Catholic saint recently for things of this nature.

    The Philosopher's Stone is not just a spiritual allegory for a personal enlightenment despite what many people will tell you. They say
    these things because it is true that a spiritual enlightenment is required if one is to make a 'Stone', and because they have not done the 'work'. Israel Regardie wrote a book called The Philosopher's Stone in which he said it was only a metaphor or allegory. Regardie is worth reading and he was the personal secretary for Aleister Crowley and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn which some authors say is satanistic. The authors who say that are often Bible Thumpers and worse. It is Luciferian and Lucifer is the Venus light or Heliopolitan Druidic system. It is a good spiritual course and Regardie's work on the books of the HOGD that present part of that course are possibly the best books to introduce people to the Path. In the reprinting of Regardie's book some 20 years later he knew the Stone was real because he had seen it.

    You can be certain that the De Medicis who adopted St. Germain and were probably kinfolk to begin with, were not stupid superstitious people despite the fact that they bought the Papacy more than a few times. The De Medicis paid to have the Corpus Hermeticum translated and had their family name (De Brix) used as the title. They were not mere 'farmers' or 'bauers'. They have always been of the highest understanding. This is one of the reasons you can be sure the Rothschilds are the De Medicis. Both of these families used the same old song about being 'farmers (De Medicis) or 'bauers' which is translated as 'farmers'. I am going to check to see if I have missed where Gurdjieff is associated with a Stone, but if I say no more about it, you know I found nothing.

    The Ascension Research people may be temporarily off the web accoriding to what I find when I click on the many hits with their name. Here is what it starts out with and there are many sites quoting them.

    About 17,200,000 results (0.40 seconds)

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    Ascended Masters Teachings at Ascension Research Center

    Ascended Master Teachings from Ascension Research Center on the I AM Presence of God, the Real Self of each person. ...
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    "If you go with the flow, you go down the toilet." - Avatar Adi Da Samraj

    Then it can also be said if you follow an avatar who tells you what you already know is 'within' you are paying to get your self off, when your true SELF seeks for a plan you will never find.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-04-2016 at 10:06 AM.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    I suppose there could be a connection between Gurdjieff and the Philosopher's Stone according to Wikipedia and Ouspensky who say this. They might only be saying the Enneagram is a secret like the Stone is a secret. They go on to say Idries Shah traces the Enneagram to people I (looking further than the Wiki article) would indeed say had the Stone. If you have a Stone like Da Vinci did you can "see' through time and gain knowledge enough to design or draw things such as he did. But it is not an exact vision in his case or any others I know about, it is dimensional and there are alternate time-lines or possibilities as Quantum Physics has now proven. Yes, I know there is debate about how certain the MWI is and so forth.

    "As reported by Ouspensky the enneagram was introduced by George Gurdjieff to his study groups in St Petersburg and Moscow in 1916. Ouspensky records this original explication in his book of Gurdjieff's teaching In Search of the Miraculous where the enneagram appears as Figure 44 and in further diagrams.[1] It was presented as an ancient secret being released for the first time, the truth behind for example the Philosopher's Stone. Ouspensky quotes Gurdjieff as saying; "The knowledge of the enneagram has for a very long time been preserved in secret and if it now is, so to speak, made available to all, it is only in an incomplete and theoretical form without instruction from a man who knows". Gurdjieff also remarked "In order to understand the enneagram it must be thought of as in motion, as moving. A motionless enneagram is a dead symbol, the living symbol is in motion" [2]"

    Yes, there is a growing cult of people claiming the Enneagram is a Philosopher's Stone or what creates one. Gurdjieff made a comparison to it but he would have made one if the Enneagram was that close to being one. Nothing would surprise me, maybe soon someone will claim he did make one, and that they are his second coming! To know we are all immortal in some way is not what a Stone is. To say the man with a Fourth Body is immortal from Gurdjieff's Fourth Way could be equated with one of the attributes (The Elixir of Life) in an allegorical Stone. An allegorical or metaphorical Stone is an inner path centered approach he would know, there appears to be much confusion. And again I repeat - there is a Philosopher's Stone which does more than a spiritual personal transformation!

    Now we have his own clear and unequivocal words about him having a Philosopher's Stone as I recall it. From Meetings With Remarkable Men he says he is going to "shear" sheep in America like a "thorough-bred.. hunting dog". He says he is poor and needs the money to support his Institute, and that is fine, and even transparent and truthful.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 02-22-2016 at 11:18 AM.

  4. #24
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    Jan 2015
    In the many millennia since humanity learned a love of knowledge and tested it till it became wisdom, people have claimed greater truths that they knew more than the man over the mountain or across the body of water that kept people apart long enough so that they became less important in each other's lives.

    The opposite also was and is true. When they felt uncertain or saw the 'others' were thriving they blamed it on gods and forces they could not control. Over time there became an idea that these gods needed interpreters and so began a major deceit and cause of the destructions borne through hatred of our fellow man.

    Alongside the priests and those who started believing their leaders were people who understood a better philosophy must exist and they found people in the next clan who shared their perspectives and wanted to build upon those shared efforts and thoughts. But when times were tough and no common enemy of their families and clans or tribes were present there were places in this world that saw the green-eyed monster of jealousy contribute to even greater dissonance and became hatred guided by the interpreters and those appointed by the interposition of those who spoke for the embodiment of our collective soul and wisdom.

    It is my perception that this occurred a long time ago - over 100,000 years and maybe some groups had refined systems of governance as much as 200,000 or more years ago. It varied in places on this Earth as the climates changed and people had to move and find new places to live during major changes in the environment. In places where the climate changes never included Ice Ages with Glaciers, or had easy access to food and less need of shelter, there was far less threat from nature (gods).

    But after a major cataclysm when a meteor broke through the crust of the Earth and volcanos and earthquakes spewed massive amounts of dust into the atmosphere. Worldwide tidal waves and a millennia of nuclear winter which gradually subsided caused an end to most social co-operation. This occurred in the area we can see parts of the meteor fell into the ground and caused little lakes and ponds across the Carolinas. The crust breach was in what we call the Bermuda Triangle as well there were nearby (Caribbean, for example) fault lines moving enough for massive drops of urban centers below the water.

    What had been a savannah in the northern parts of Africa (for one example but central Asia had a similar change) started to become a desert or the process of change was abruptly accelerated. But the climate in more northern regions had become unlivable except near the Gulf Stream perhaps. Whoever survived had moved to the warmer regions and they had lots of land or room and it was a welcome sight to see other humans. Saber-cats and common natural threats made tribal allegiance a necessity and a move to urban dwelling was occurring even before the great cataclysm as we know in Anatolia and mountains nearby as well as what we have only glimpsed at the bottom of the Black Sea.

    It became necessary to re-build the numbers of each clan and all of humanity. Many areas saw women as baby-factories and created harems, equality was threatened and serious social changes occurred we are still suffering through, because people who had to spend their life with children as the main purpose in their existence let men get away with being children. I am kidding, a little. The men amused themselves in fraternal groups and activities. They even began to believe women were less able to see the gods and natural forces we call gods or other names. This is the backdrop for the Masons and Martinists, Brahmins and later Maharajahs etc.

    I do not think the names matter so much until religions started becoming more powerful than the clans and the Brotherhood thereof. Let us say around the time when the megaliths stopped being built is a good time to say the Masons who built these megaliths like we see on the Giza Plateau had a formal beginning. Let us say their battles with the priesthoods saw a rise and a fall from the battles over a millennia or two. Some need for re-constituting various Brotherhoods like The Great White Brotherhood of Master Craftsmen occurred in the second millennia BCE. There were also grave-robbers, pirates and assassins who formed something similar to guilds and professional lobbies.

    But the wise men and shamanic communities that people like Gurdjieff tell us still maintained their knowledge through all of these upheavals seem to have become involved from time to time as they grew their power at the expense of others. These elite families who some of their historians like to say they have a complete history for are saying they are Martinists. They are also important family units with names like Stuart or the kin of Benjamin and sons of Mile (Milesians, Brutti etc.). These people go forth and continue creating children with women who they are not married to, and we get in-fighting and squabbles between first born son of the first wife and so on.

    Did all of the fraternal organizations come together at any point? Maybe a lot of them had to when the elites created massive Empires like Greece and Rome or Britain. The same families built nations and still had knowledge of their cousins who they enjoyed jousting and little war games with until the beginning of the 20th C. You can say their corporate entities still enjoy these jousts and trysts. Did they make plans on a larger scale at some points in history? I say they always had plans and yearly meetings and there is ample evidence of it since the Trojan War.

    They cull their own members who do not have a value to contribute or who are their bastards sons throughout time as well. But they did make a serious attempt to make sense of all the nonsense at the meetings which lead to the Treaty of Westphalia in the 17th C. AD. There were still some families who felt they were better and their nations more deserving even though they recognized the others also had the Divine Rights of Kings still. Into this maelstrom came the Enlightenment after the Renaissance had beaten back the Dark Ages. Both the Renaissance and Enlightenment had been fostered by the elite of the elite families. The de Medicis and their Alumbrados outreach which began the Jesuits after a failed attempt to do too much too fast in places like Avignon during the 12th C. and two centuries thereabouts, are important. They adopted a son of the Hessian branch of their family and his name is St. Germain.

    It is a lot more complex with many guilds and associations in all parts of the realm. I am focussing on what grew into the Masons mostly and you can see some higher plans called Illuminati (Illumine and Alumbrados) as well. After the Revolutions in France and the Americas were over we saw Albert Pike create a compendium of laws and writings which the Anderson (see my story of them and a daughter or two - see also the Constitutions) family also did in the Emerald Isles. Yes, all of what you read so far, is just preamble to his important compilation or editing of Morals and Dogma. You might notice Pike is Scottish Rite and Andersons are Scots, and guess there is a higher group or two.

    Here is a little from the first degree or Apprentice level.

    "Intellect is to the people and the people's Force, what the slender needle of the compass is to the ship--its soul, always counselling the huge mass of wood and iron, and always pointing to the north. To attack the citadels built up on all sides against the human race by superstitions, despotisms, and prejudices, the Force must have a brain and a law. Then its deeds of daring produce permanent results, and there is real progress. Then there are sublime conquests. Thought is a force, and philosophy should be an energy, finding its aim and its effects in the amelioration of mankind. The two great motors are Truth and Love. When all these Forces are combined, and guided by the Intellect, and regulated by the RULE of Right, and Justice, and of combined and systematic movement and effort, the great revolution prepared for by the ages will begin to march. The POWER of the Deity Himself is in equilibrium with His WISDOM. Hence the only results are HARMONY."

    Yes, I know you have some swamp land to sell me. I know most people also know how the Hegelian Dialectic of say one thing and do another traps low level people with BELIEFS into the net and corrals for eating and shearing ops or Black Ops in militaristic ventures which General Smedley Butler confessed to having done in the time shortly after Morals and Dogma saw the light.

    I put this here in the Gurdjieff thread because of the words 'Truth and Love' as we have explored their use as words and abuses thereof in this thread. I will also put it under the thread Freemasons and Martinists. I am debating with myself about creating a thread called Morals and Dogma. The various Illuminati threads also need it - including the Swedenborg thread, but you can read them or not as you choose.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 02-23-2016 at 10:17 AM.

  5. #25
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    Jan 2015
    Chester (Ron Cook) has made a cogent contribution to one of his threads here today. I quote a large segment of it for you. Perhaps it belongs in a thread on education as well.

    "Leveraging for Power in life means that the Me will use Violence, Wealth, Religion, Knowledge, Beauty, or Love to gain control over the Other, or seek recognition from the Other. There is really only one selfless means of communicating with the Other. It is Love. All other means are elements that invoke the ancient law of consequence. The law of consequence is also known as the law of cause and effect...what goes around, comes around. Because the law of consequence is leveraged into existence by selfish acts by the Me for his/her own gain (in effect saying that the Other does not exist therefore negating the Me's own existence).

    Look into the eye of the Other and you will see the mirror of the self. No person exists beyond the data of his/her own senses. Without the feedback of the other's activities, there would be no data to see, hear, taste, smell, touch or examine with the brain or the sixth sense. The seventh sense is intuition which few beings develop unless they are unselfish and understand the power of the law of consequences. In your mind dances all the data of the Other. Without the knowledge gained of the outside world, you would be nothing. You are what you learn. You are an accumulation of all your life experiences. Your are the Other replicated by leveraged experiences reinforced over and over again. Wisdom is gained when you learn to Love the Other and Life becomes a Passion for harmony and continued becoming.

    Perception Dynamics

    Our society then, seems to be poised within the tacit-dynamic of living and being, towards a civilization based upon achieving improved wisdom and mental amplification for the masses. (Society is such a mess of lies -- reversing the trend seems to be the only althernative.) This "wishful thinking" described as a trend, requires that the education of what some call a "Super-Generalist," becomes an educational norm. This super-person of encyclopedic scope, would require an education far and above anything we currently offer and would constitute a mindset far-and-away from those who currently collude for self-enhancement (illusionists).

    Many researchers suggest that America's educational establishment must address old collusions and illusions by ridding our society of the disease called the "Naivete Syndrome". This malady is the sufferance of allowing hype, policy, propaganda, and the positioning of assumptions towards the influence of undeveloped perceptions of persons who are educationally disadvantaged or have been duped by misinformation. This naivete-syndrome is of course the total problem of why man has found himself locked in mediocrity since the beginning of recorded time. Cultural-polarization utilizing the naivete-syndrome has long been a leveraging tool of the elite (opinion leaders) to manipulate the naive (read uneducated) and its usage must now become known to the general public through our public educational curriculums.

    Our society is plagued by this lack of perception, thus it is shielded from the truth by incomplete educational communications in the total...if, indeed, some kind of total-education is what we, the great masses, deserve. A small litmus test for determining the directions of our society toward more realistic (truthful) directions, can be suggested by comparing perceptive qualities of individuals and groups within a quantitative list of four visions or means of viewing life. The four visions comprise what I call "Perception Dynamics" we see the world around us. Perception Dynamics is/are an adaptation of a system originally set up by Dr. Reid Hastie (University of Minnesota) and Christian Schmidt (Designer). Their ideas became my adaptation and research after I read one of their books."

    For look at what Ouspensky thought about the Tarot you can read it here.

    It would not surprise me if the ancients had technology such as what follows before the great meteor caused the near extinction of humanity in 8350 BCE. It might even have existed when the double kiln was constructed at Dolni Vestonici around 30,000 years ago. This is effectively a VRIL Machine and there are lesser designs which include psychotronic enhancements. Pavlita developed one.

    The machine with a Wankle exterior (Like the RX 7 engine) to the inside of the cement, which had an interior moving device such as shown in a link which follows, had energy symbols including the ankh to add etheric energy and earth polarity to cause power for moving objects - which he did.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-31-2016 at 12:03 PM.

  6. #26
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    Jan 2015
    In the realm of people who claim to be speakers like Gurdjieff I am convinced most have simply studied available wisdom and they at most sensed things connecting to what it takes for knowledge to exist at a certain level with older wisdom schools they will often easily attribute the knowledge to. But like me, they are not actually accessing Ein Sof or the Akashic. Yes, I do get 'feelings' and I know other people have different gifts or more discipline. But I have met these people and they know no more than me - maybe one person was a lot more disciplined but not more knowledgeable about origins of the knowledge. That is what Gurdjieff, Blavatsky, Lovecraft, Steiner and others of lesser repute claim.

    If it is true that knowledge is power and that power corrupts when few are in possession of it - is it any surprise that there is a disconnect of immense proportions in our society? The near vacuum in the region between adepthood or wisdom and the hoi polloi or commonly held belief or civic morality varies from region to cultural region but the breadth of the disconnect or vacuum stays pretty similar. Of course there are distinctions or hierarchies which have been fostered and the role of specialized knowledge has become synarchy instead of anarchy or democracy. The use and abuse of words like anarchy or liberal and conservative in political venues from communist to Nazi or fascist makes it somewhat difficult for a poor wordsmith like myself to capture the immensity of our malaise or full out ignorance which the Gnostics say is the Original Sin. Sin, and evil are words worth deconstruction and my nieces once told me 'sin' is self-inflicted nonsense - my oldest brother is a fine example of it. The spiritual milieu or ether of energy which surrounds us has what early adepts or shamans over two million years ago sought to make sense of - and tried to convey that 'sense' to others long before language as we know it, developed . Specialized jargon, anaphora religious terminologies and metaphors or analogies, story tellers and troubadours, or outright political liars and ecclesiasties of feudal Dark Age deceit still remain from the beginnings of Empire and the needed management of people.

    The stages of language development and timing thereof is a large philosophic debate which hard scientists studying the human physiology are focussing on to the extent that some people say we only recently had the speech lobes to be able to talk and therefore language or communication did not exist. I heartily contest that myopic and cultural bias which was truly 'evil' when John Locke developed a Scale of Nature with a 'tabula rasa' saying no consciousness could be existent without language. That Scale of Nature put the English WASP at the top of the charts and black man down with the Hottentot that some thought had come into existence from the interbreeding of an orangutan and human. In his early life Thomas Jefferson held this revolting concept that still pervailed (a word I will leave here even though it was a typo, because a pervert prevails would not be acceptable linguistic usage) - and in my own lifetime some people have proposed similar unscientific viewpoints. It is said Neanderthal only developed speech lobes about 150,000 years ago and we now know they interbred with other hominids. But they had a larger brain and I think were entirely able to consciously apprehend nature and reality as well as share it through a variety of communication forms - signing became one origin of Ogham, ESP another. The Sumatran Gibbon or Bonobos in Africa have language as do porpoises and some day we may even learn to speak with our 'diggies' who certainly understand words like 'walk'. Kanzai, and Koko could teach John Locke a lot.

    There is 'of course' no such thing as evil demons to the extent some religions have built the pantheon and I consider Gods to have a rather recent origin of an anthropomorphed psychological 'easy answer' and political 'social engineering' Genesis. I did not need Francis Fukayama in his book The End of History and The Last Man to confirm or confess "all absolute religions have been tools for social engineers" like himself. He deserved his promotion from the US Department in charge of Policy to the shadow governing ethos or construct and Rand Corporation role in that Shadow Government which has devolved or evolved from various Illuminized (Gnosis translates as wisdom or 'enlightenment' not Salvation as Romanism foisted or injected into a cult similar to Christian Gospel lies now called Caesar's Messiah by some scholars) efforts including the advent of organized religion about 600 BCE. Even Confucianism and Buddhism which have no God are found coming out of the woodwork at this particular point in time. The title of my first book Diverse Druids gives some idea of earlier origins before 600 BCE. But I do not think it (What one language calls Druidry) was as much a religion as it was a scientific shared Brotherhood with transparent and freely available access to higher layers of study - if a person wished to study! Before the time of Caesar it was a 25 year course of study and included Bairds, Ovates and Druids as well as vascerri (priests), pheryllts (scientists or alchemists like Merlin), bards or kapnobatai like Orpheus and later Pythagoras, all starting with mimes, minstrels and jesters who might become orators and language experts before moving into more specialized realms of study as they showed merit and had interest.

    That brings me to the first area we would have to stipulate to or agree upon if we were to debate the origins of Gnostic or Hermetic thought. Was mankind conscious and able to communicate 2 million years ago - after he had developed tools greater than those we know apes used.

    It reminds me of a comment by a Mr. Tulip on a Biblical Interpretation site I was recently revolted by as they ridiculed any attempt to deconstruct the Biblical early writings as mere Phoenician or Keltoi mythology as the Father of Biblical Archaeology asserted from his lofty professorship at Johns Hopkins. Mr. Tulip and I agree Acharya S has done good work penetrating the ethos of Empire and I supported her contention when she, I and Vincent Bridges discussed the Language of the BRDs (my last name therein) about a dozen years ago. Here is my response to him just before leaving the austere company of Mr. Hindley et al.

    Dear Mr. Tulip

    Hurray - some actual thought in the wilderness!

    I remain of the view that this patronising attitude towards analysis of pagan parallels is evidence of mental blockages towards simple evidence. The reasons for such blockages are complex. A key part of it is the failure to understand the role of Gnostic spirituality, and how Gnosticism was an old movement based on links between Judaism and other cultures. These links are denied point blank by the “nuts” premise of this thread which Godfrey and Huller and now Hindley have rather crassly supported.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Would it be fair to say the occult helped Hitler achieve greatness? I wonder if Gurdjieff liked to see what resulted from whatever involvement he had with the situation in Germany and Russia where he advised the Czar as a member of the Intelligence community. He also met with Rasputin.

    There is a great deal to be learned about what went on in the publication of this book and the preparations (almost dictating of it to Hitler) in the jail it was authored in. Then to have it doctored or commented upon as it was translated for use and abuse by Americans who in some cases are involved in supporting eugenics and funding Hitler makes it even more difficult. But what I will quote next will demonstrate that Hitler saw a way to build and ensure a means of forming nationalist opinions with the same methods used in religions but taking away the uncertainties that had failed the religion and government which he had grown up in. You will see the author of Mein Kampf understood people and how little the average person is capable of making wise decisions. The political process in democracies does much more than lower the net intellect of the whole to it's lowest common denominator. Plato observed this and some recent pundits call it dumbocracy it is part of why the USA is not an all out democracy. If it was the influence of General Karl Haushofer who was one of Gurdjieff's Remarkable Men that would not surprise me; that is also where the doctored or adapted Swastika came from. A follower of Gurdjieff, who wrote Morning of the Magicians is one source for the things I say above.

    Is it most important for most people that they be proven correct and that they can say they knew better than their neighbor as to the way of the world? Or is it more important to conform and be seen as wise within the paradigm. And maybe the trickiest question of all is answered in the words of the author of Mein Kampf. It really does not matter which answer you give. Whether you believe in the potential of humanity to manage itself or not, the history of the last 5,000 years proves it is not. So in order to make it possible for humanity to work together things must change. Please read these words by Hitler to see he was carrying out another attempt to globalize or at the very least (And he did say he was tasked to do this.) unify Europe in order to bring it into the Brit-Am conclave attempted in Colonel House's League of Nations. Yes, Woodrow Wilson was a patsy.

    In Mein Kampf, we have a rather insightful understanding of politics and potential origins of it - and how to form public opinion to gain power, but leaving a place to blame others if the plan does not go a certain direction and still come out ahead.

    "What we mean by the word 'public opinion depends only to the smallest extent on the individual's own experiences or knowledge, and largely on an image, frequently created by a penetrating and persistent sort of so-called 'enlightenment.'

    Just as confessional orientation is the result of education, and religious need, as such, slumbers in the mind of man, so the political opinion of the masses represents only the final result of a sometimes unbelievably tough and thorough belaboring of soul and mind.

    By far the greatest bulk of the political 'education,' which in this case one may rightly define with the word 'propaganda,' is the work of the press. It is the press above all else that carries out this 'work of enlightenment,' thus forming a sort of school for adults. This instruction, however, does not rest in the hand of the State, but partly in the claws of very inferior forces. As a very young man in Vienna, I had the very best opportunity of becoming really acquainted with the owners and spiritual producers of this machine for educating the masses. {Ask how this is true and you will find schools or cults set up by St. Germain.} At the beginning I was astonished how short a time it took this most evil of all the great powers in the State to create a certain opinion, even if this involved complete falsification of the wishes or opinions in the minds of the public. In the course of a few days a ridiculous trifle was turned into an affair of State, whereas, at the same time, problems of vital importance were dropped into general oblivion, or rather were stolen from the minds and the memory of the masses....

    This rabble, however, manufactures more than two-thirds of the so-called 'public' opinion, and out of its foam rises the parliamentary Aphrodite.

    One would have to write volumes to describe this procedure correctly in its entire mendacity and untruthfulness. However, if one leaves this out of account,...

    On the whole, one cannot contradict too sharply the absurd opinion that men of genius are born out of general elections. First, there is only one real ' statesman ' once in a blue moon in one nation {Here we have the opinion well-expressed by Thomas Carlyle who was a protégé of Goethe.} and not a hundred or more at a time; and second, the masses' aversion to every superior genius is an instinctive one. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than that a great man is 'discovered ' in an election.

    What really stands out of the norm of the great masses generally personally announces its arrival in world history.

    So that it is five hundred men of more than modest competence who vote on the most important concerns of the nation; they appoint governments which, in turn, in each single case and in each special question, have to obtain the consent of the illustrious assembly, and thus politics are actually made by five hundred men.

    And it usually looks like it, too. ...

    Of course, one will now raise the objection that the individual deputy has actually but little understanding for the one or the other matter; that in coming to a decision he is advised by the parliamentary faction as the leader of the policies of the gentlemen in question; that this faction always has its special committees which are more than amply advised by experts.

    At first sight this seems to be correct. Then the question would still be: Why does one elect five hundred if only a few of them have sufficient wisdom to define their attitudes towards the most important matters?

    This, then, was the gist of the matter! [Ja, darinliegt eben des Pudels Kern. A paraphrase of a line in Goethe's Faust.} * {Goethe was a founder of one of many Illuminized groups - the Bavarian Illuminati also included William of Hesse who worked with Mayer Amschel Rothschild who had been given the Templar and Benjaminite monopolies on usury and their spy network by St. Germain de Medicis.}

    It is not the object of our present-day democratic parliamentarianism to form an assembly of wise men, but rather to gather a crowd of mentally dependent ciphers which may be more easily led in certain directions, the more limited the intelligence of the individual. Only thus can parties make politics in the worse sense of the word today. Only thus is it also possible that the actual wirepuller is able to remain cautiously in the background without ever being personally called to account. Because no decision, no matter how detrimental it is to the nation, can now be charged to the account of a rascal who is in the public eye, but it is dumped on the shoulders of an entire faction.... {And he, Hitler, was the outcome or patsy, you can interpret.}

    When after the Great War the House of Habsburg started with utmost determination to root out, slowly but steadily, the dangerous Germanism of the dual monarchy (about whose inner conviction there could be no doubt) for this would mean the end of the policy of Slavization the resistance of this doomed people broke out in a way that the German history of modern times had never known.

    For the first time men with national and patriotic feelings became rebels. {If that is because nations as such had never really existed for long - then it is true; but pride in cultures and propaganda had a long history.}

    Rebels, not against the nation, not against the State as such, but against a form of government which in their
    opinion was bound to lead their own nationality to its doom.

    For the first time in modern German history, traditional dynastic patriotism separated from national love for country and people.

    It was the merit of the Pan-German movement in Austria, during the nineties, that it clearly demonstrated beyond a doubt that a State authority can only demand respect and protection as long as it corresponds to the desires of a nationality and at least does not harm it."
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-31-2016 at 07:07 AM.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    There are dangers in the pursuit of power or siddhis as J. Krishnamurti warned his readers. He should know, after having rejected the Theosophical Messiahood.

    The art of creating a cult is not even close to new, It was not new when Greece was a powerful force in a little part of the world we have been told was the whole of the world. Just trot out some half-known truths and history to people who don't know them. Add a pinch of secrecy and tell them they are 'chosen'; maybe get a song or mantra and a few mandalas from long ago to make a logo and letterhead with - voila! Some people will fool-owe you to the 'end of days'.

    "It is impossible to understand what is happening in America and the world today without fully comprehending the beliefs, organizational structure, and power of these occult secret societies like the Golden Dawn. The dynamics of these secret societies can only be understood within the context of a multi-dimensional world, along with the power, forces, and entities that come from what has been termed the Fourth Dimension, invisible realm, or what some call the spiritual world.

    Crowley called himself the “Great Beast 666,” who is the Antichrist in the Book of Revelation. The women he selected to be used sexually he called “Scarlett Women,” which is a direct reference to Babylon the Great Harlot in Revelation. Crowley was deliberately mocking the God of the Bible, not because he did not believe in God, but because he believed Lucifer was God and that is who Crowley chose to serve. When America was established Sir Francis Bacon was the head of the occult society known as the Rosicrucians. Bacon planned for America to be the “New Atlantis” and the head of the New World Order and wrote about this in the 1600s. It is alleged that Benjamin Franklin was a Rosicrucian and a Satanist, and that he participated in satanic orgies and rituals, such as the Hell Fire Club’s in England and France. There exists a secret destiny for America and Franklin played a key role in it. Franklin was also a member of the Order of the Quest and apparently supported Sir Francis Bacon’s secret plan for America to be the New Atlantis. The United States was intended to be an Illuminati Utopia and the Illuminati, as well as the Golden Dawn stemmed from the Rosicrucians."

    If you get a few friends who want to make money you can rip off The Kybalion (The Secret) or some other simplistic partial insight that promises more wealth (or power) to anyone, you might begin an avalanche of fool-owers and believers. You will need access to suitcases to carry your money just like Hubbard discovered after his lectures in Philadelphia to psychologists and academics. Don't overlook an internet presence and store, people who believe will tell their friends and enemies or anyone who'll listen, how they know something of importance.

    When you set out to make yourself look important as is the case with alien yoked hybrid nutcases or Contactees, you can also easily imagine or hallucinate new forms of language and ways of making energy flow your way.

    It is even easier when you are building on purposefully created codes which require insight to get the correct meanings. Yes, that is plural - because no true or truthful insight in alchemy or depth psychology, or gnosis, or cyber war, is just one obvious design. The symbols called alphabets change meaning due to conventions in word use amongst everyday people. George Carlin did a great illustration of that with the word shit.

    People who hear about an ancient knowledge system will be found saying they are the only true remnants of it. There are the Martinists and Wiccans who claim 25,000 years of knowledge because they can point to some aspect that other people did not know a few years ago. There are hundreds of Druid groups who say the same stuff, and do not study or will not discuss in open forums the nature of their claims with people like me, who do study.

    Then there are infiltrated religious and other cults which have been usurped by Empire - Gnostics are a fine example. There are so many of just this one functional system that it will make your head spin - that is if you really want to know what it is that is going on. Most people are happy if they meet other people and form a bond or get sex, and Wicca (There are many related Egyptian and Norse etc, systems) is a certain path to the latter.

    In the aboriginal artifices you had people being tricksters or Heyoka even before the Heathen horde came to dispossess the advanced spiritual people. They also had secret societies like the Mediwiwin and Don Juan's Toltecs and Zotz (vampire) followers etc. Let us take the Australian wise men who may have learned to cause energy to move at great distances. If a novitiate was talented he might move something a mile away and think just because it was more than his teacher - that meant he was better or should start his own cult. Rasputin is a good example of this kind of thinking and how wisdom differs from power or ability.

    Sometimes a charismatic person claiming great power will get a group think hysteria happening and make a whole cult which generates great power and wealth - but I will leave religions alone - they follow more dogmatic and commonly understood ways to their godheads, Ramas, Anti-Xenus or Yahoos. Often the Messiah (eg. Hitler) is a pawn for more knowledgeable occultists. Channellers have had great success in recent times - and you can become an Ascension guide with just a few courses (for the right amount of cash). Then there are the rip-off artists like The Secret who take just one very small part of a good system like alchemy and millions or billions of bucks flow wildly around. If your cult gets to last long enough you start getting a donation in the estate or will from rich and senile people - then you can retire a billionaire (See SRF and Doris Duke).

    If you create a nest of cults appealing to a whole lot of New Age wishful-thinking wanna-bes you will get to continue spinning off profit centers in time. AMORC and Blavatsky types (maybe Gurdjieff) are examples, one such spin off is Scientology.

    The Esoteric online forums had a brief surge of interest, Project Avalon has jumped the Shark too many times but still has hope and makes Ryan some good bucks. You can probably find a hundred other members for this category of cult in the conspiracy network or the fool-owers of James Randi. Here is another -

    Alternative thinking is said to have more followers in certain regions than the paradigm. This was something I fought for over the last two decades in a major effort. Now I think it is worse than the paradigm. Thinking has not come forward out of questioning authority. Instead we have more politically correct avoidance by even weirder nests of nutcases. It is almost funny except it is causing war, and worse in many parts of the world. Pol Pot fits this kind of outcome which probably included Black Ops just like the CIA rogue elements have done with drugs. The Fascist program almost took total control of the USA and tried a coup of FDR. The Illuminati, the Jesuits, the Rothschilds and such all rank up there in relation to the Big Boogeyman of all - religion.

    The origin of qabala (verbal tradition) began before the ability to speak and might be connected to the soul or wisdom acquisition of the most early of knowledge systems even before Tantric and sutra sex and dancing (dream dancing or Dirvish-like ecstasy). The ability to attune with wisdom in nature probably precedes humanity. It is cosmic consciousness and has a corollary or opposite which is also part of the truth we find in Abraxas and the Oroborous. This cosmic fire and ice has origins long before Aristotle or his inspired progenitor Pythagoras the Druid. You can see it in the Qabala's Tree of Life which I did for my book Diverse Druids.

    I hear Icke has been quoting that book of mine, as if I support his serpent stuff just because Druids and others had such totems and the ability to mind fog people such as I once informed him had been done to him. Here are some thoughts on his situation after I quoted Alex Jones calling him insane. At least Icke has the sense to say his aliens are from an alternate universe or separate dimension. The Bible thumpers would have them intervening physically and interbreeding Anunnaki or Elohim are more far out. Rationalwiki needs some physicists to set them straight on what is woo, too. The whole mess is a lot of money-grubbing half-wits who do not study more than what floats their own boat.

    Just take David Icke, the local British curiosity famous for claiming that the moon isn't real and that the world is run by shape-shifting alien reptiles. Laugh all you want — that dude has a net worth of 10 million pounds, accumulated through book sales and expensive, sold-out live talks. Whether people are generally interested in the reptilian moon people or they're just paying absurd cash to watch a crazy guy humiliate himself for a few hours, that money adds up.
    —Adam Wears[1]

    David Icke[note 1] is a human singularity of insanity best known for his "reptoid" conspiracy theory.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-13-2016 at 07:09 PM.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    My older brother responded as we see.


    I like your first paragraph.

    You have quickly painted a picture (and pictures) of cults over the ages.

    I know you could expand it to include more.

    How much do 1) span of control 2) ignorance & genius 3) rogue elements 4) life span 5) catastrophic events 6) competition 7) satisfaction with level of wealth and control 8) technology 9) record keeping 10) time 11) vantage point; 12) “the circle of goodness” 13) good work and management by others; and 14) etc –-- constantly change the perspective and significance of cults???

    AND what about “all living things”???

    The self centered vantage point of the “human beast” (Crowley was just one, LRH is another, but neither likely make the top 1000) is the biggest problem when added to the self centered focus of all of us.

    The “ages” (on earth) may extend back millions of years. The Grand Canyon reveals there may be hundreds of millions of years (or so) missing from the earth’s crust.

    No one is in charge. This may be good. Cheers for those who attempt the very hard work of providing real value. I hope the Internet will get more people off their chairs and involved.


    April 13, 2016

    My reply

    The point of the article is - there is a negative outcome from the internet appeals to ignorance. Yes, I also have covered the "beast with red cheeks' (Hobbes) and "appeals to base human instincts" (Machiavelli) elsewhere. That is the old time religions which are also expanding their devilish work which brought us Shrub and Harper.

    Productivity as you think of it - is like the Dodo bird - or soon should be, the corpserists were the ones who focus on what you think of as productive - they are counter productive and they backed Hitler and tried to overthrow FDR (see Smedley Butler who stopped them). David Korten is the inventor of the word 'corpserists' and he is a featured writer at Yes, Magazine where I sent this article.

    Creativity will triumph if humanity continues to exist - highly doubtful if we do not address the cults called religions. Thus the wireless implants will soon achieve what Colonel House did to Woodrow Wilson - and Scientology does to our younger brother and children.

    Transparency in Government, Media and Religion

    The most important part of any course where reading is involved or people are sharing their thoughts has to start with stipulating the weaknesses of learned knowledge and the need for questioning one's beliefs. Here is a central part of the problem historians or truth seekers face. This one example covers almost all of history.

    Do you believe what you read in the paper today? Which side of the event do you believe? Is either one correct? When you look back on the event a month later after reading more accounts does your opinion of the first accounts change?

    The following link mentions Hecateus was the first to use the word 'keltoi' in 500 BCE. I doubt that for many reasons including the word Celt is a roman epithet to diminish the 'kelts' and earlier cultures they stole and fought from and with. When was the first time 'Celt' was used to describe a people rather than the hammered tool made from early alloying caused in fires like those set to cause rock to break and release gold or gems? That is called Spalling and it was probably used before Dolni Vestonici double kiln technology and ceramic making in 27,000 BCE. Hammered tool - in case you do not know, is synonymous with a drunken lout. That is the kind of history that survived Empire and was still being written by Hume in the era of Gibbon who wrote the definitive book on Rome. That is what books used in schools still pass along as fact.

    Though the following says we have many ancient historians and geographers and books they wrote - they do not. The works of Poseidonius are quoted by others and I think his originals were too instructive about the origins of actual inventions and culture so they had to be destroyed. His work is quoted by Herodotus who was ridiculed for writing fictions (now proven by archaeology - Amazons and Sybaris are examples). Then there is the usual matter of journalists writing things to appease or please their masters or employers. The Senchus Mor told the history of the Kelts for 25,000 years and thus it was a primary target for elimination and doctoring by the likes of St. Patrick who we have proof did just that. Strabo wrote that the Kelts of Iberia had a 7500 year written history. Roma and Greece were not even glints in the eyes of the Phoenician Keltoi in the era before the second millennia BCE began. The Phoenicians however were working on writing alphabets and are the acknowledged originators of all Mediterranean alphabets. I say it is more than that as you would know if you read my numerous points, books and articles on the subject quoting all manner of experts including Flinders-Petrie in his Formation of the Alphabet.

    "The Celts of the distant north have not yet taken to writing, but we have many accounts of people who have been to their lands or who have talked to people who have. The Carthaginian Himilcar was one of the first people to leave an account of the area. Hecataeus of Miletus (c 500B.C.), an early geographer and writer, was the first to use the term "Keltoi". His works are quoted by the later Herodotus (c. 450 B.C.). Pytheas of Massalia (4th century B.C.) spoke of an island called Brettanike. He travelled there and possibly beyond around 310 - 306 B.C. Theopompus' 4th century B.C. account of Philip II of Macedon includes his contacts with the Keltoi. Hieronymus of Cardia and Phylarchus, both of the 3rd century B.C., wrote about the customs of the Keltoi. Marinus wrote about the Keltoi in the 1st century B.C. Poseidonius' first-hand account of Gaul in the 1st century B.C. is much quoted by Diodorus Siculus (1st century B.C.), and Strabo (25 A.D.). There is also a copy of a Greek inscription in Upper Egypt (185 B.C.) that tells how some mercenaries with Greek names caught a fox or jackal. From the inscription it is obvious that the mercenaries were, in fact, Keltoi."
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-16-2016 at 05:35 PM.

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