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Thread: Marija Gimbutas - The DNN

  1. #1
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    Jan 2015

    Marija Gimbutas - The DNN

    Yes, she deserves a separate thread from Jung and Joseph Campbell who did a foreword for her great masterpiece Language of the Goddess, in which he said if he had access to what she did before he wrote his books - they would be different. Campbell wrote about the Hero in all cultures and how similar or archetypal they are. Will HIS - story play a role in 'his' - story? I refer to this 5,000 year 'nightmare' which Joseph Campbell quotes James Joyce talking about when he did the foreword to Marija Gimbutas' Language of the Goddess.

    The War on Women is a large part of what must be addressed. History is a poor teacher if you do not study to separate the motives and means from the lives lost in often aggrandized hero worship or cultish national - 'isms'. I guess it would be hard for me or anyone not to have a bias of some sort but I think I am more 'open' than most.

    The origin of the Amazons is in far earlier matriarchal or egalitarian Keltic times. This will soon be proven as we throw off the history of patriarchs and falsified histories to support keeping all people in their place, under some Empire rather than Brotherhood (Iesa). This lady gets a good part of the picture. The women being denigrated in far off lands heard about these noble women warriors and joined their ranks - no matter what race they were accepted in the normal Keltic manner of Brotherhood still evident in many places around the world.

    "The origins of the Amazons, if deduced only from Greek records, are obscure and purely mythological.

    However, as in the case of the Greeks themselves, the records of other peoples and clues in their own culture give more detail. Record of the Amazons lie also with the Ukrainians, the Chinese, the Scythians, Hittites, and Indians, to name a few. The Amazon Nation consisted of a federation of numerous all women tribes from two groups: women who left their villages temporarily for service to their Goddess, and women who preferred an all female society. This was not considered harmful or unusual. Amazons and priestesses often formed the backbone of medical and teaching personnel in communities. A wide variety of scientific knowledge was preserved in the context of ritual and systems of divination. Bearing children was the task of a warrior, given how physically dangerous it was to mother and child. Symbolically, the mother acts as a human gateway between the worlds when giving birth, an extremely dangerous occupation demanding careful precautions.

    At the time that Amazon tribes began to form, the primary deity was a Goddess, usually identified as the Lady of Beasts, the Bird Goddess, or the Snake Goddess, categories developed by Dr. Marija Gimbutas. {When you see the word deity it is not some superstitious religious claptrap - think of it as a totem or energy from reality which different clans used to represent their special kinship with. Or later as people travelled - representative deities recalling their lineage in what became ancestor worship. IMHO} This was particularly true of the Amazons, and is reflected in all mythology concerning them. Perhaps then, the easiest way to trace the Amazons is to begin with their Goddesses, given the origin of their tribes in dedicated religious colleges in North Africa {See thread on Malta.} and Anatolia approximately 10,000 years ago.

    In the Myrine entry of Chapter One, two Goddesses of the Libyan Amazons were described: Sipylene of the Moon and Sea, and Athena of the Sun. In fact, there was a third Goddess worshipped in the area, by a tribe of Amazons later known as the Pallantids. This was Pallas Promachos (Pallas of the Vanguard), whose mere shadow appeared in Athens later. The Pallantids eventually became hereditary enemies of Athens, after the raids which broke the treaties signed after the Attic War.

    The first recorded encounters between Greek and Amazon tribes occur in North Africa. Few authors make clear that the Libyan Amazons were black, and that so too must be Athena, Pallas, and Sipylene. They may have helped inspire divine female figures who have black skin in European folklore, apart from chthonic Goddesses who are black due to their connection with the soil. The other source is ancient India, homeland of the Goddesses Sera 'army' and Uma 'light' or 'Moon.' Sera seems to have been predominantly a war Goddess, but Uma became Goddess of the Moon, war, and wisdom. Uma's name may be the root of the term 'Amazon' from Uma-zoon, often translated 'Moon Warriors.' Amastis on the Black Sea may also be named for her, suggesting that Amazons there were her worshippers. Sera's followers were settled on the Gulf of Amnissus.

    The migration of Indian Amazons occurred early, probably corresponding to the invasions that destroyed the Harrapan civilization (approximately 2000 BCE){I say earlier here, in Ilavarta.}. They established early Northern Amazon settlements, and seem to have made contact with the Libyan Amazons, whose Gorgon Goddess bears points of resemblance to Kali.

    At last to the Greeks, who believed that all Amazons were descendants of Ares through Harmonia. Harmonia is a title of Aphrodite, whose warlike aspect was more commonly known as Galatea {Galatians in Roman times - Bible myth of Jesus built into the Gospel lies.}. She comes from the Middle East originally, and may be related to Astarte. {Much of this is Phoenician history too.} Paphos was originally an Amazon colony, which suggests that Aphrodite's warrior women brought her there. Still other Amazons were from Anatolia and Crete, as evidenced by their worship of Artemis, Cybele, Rhea, and Gaea. All of these and Aphrodite were worshipped as Lady of the Beasts and warrior Goddess. {See Eleusinian Mysteries, Druid's Eggs and more.} Athena was different.

    A descendant of the Bird Goddess of Neolithic times, {Is this brd goddess able to speak the language of the brds?} that was also her aspect {This is the appropriate word reflecting the energy or reality of representative deities which later were corrupted into religions OVER people.} among the Gorgons. The golden Sun eagle was originally one of her forms. Marija Gimbutas demonstrated that the Bird and Snake Goddesses were always together in Neolithic Old Europe."
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-09-2016 at 06:18 PM.

  2. #2
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    Jan 2015
    Here we have critics expressing their thoughts on Marija's work. If I were a relatively unheralded sort of academic who hung with the crowd unlike Jacquetta Hawkes and Marija Gimbutas I would probably enjoy some notoriety and get to keep my fat-assed tenured position, by giving her grudging recognition or condescension.

    "on Marija Gimbutas' 'Idyllic Goddess' Theories

    from "Idyllic Theory of Goddess Creates Storm"
    by Peter Steinfels (New York Times, Feb. 13, 1990)

    "the skepticism about this thesis by many leading archaeologists and anthropologists is unmistakable, although it always comes with expressions of deep respect for Dr. Gimbutas' other contributions and with concern for her struggles with lymphatic cancer. [Dr. Gimbutas died Feb. 2, 1994 at age 73].

    Yet the growing acceptance of her theories among nonexperts has led some of these scholars to feel that they should make their own criticism more widely known. In the end, they say, Dr. Gimbutas' work raises sensitive questions not only about prehistoric civilization but also about the relationship between speculation and scholarship and between scholarship and social movements....

    Her ideas have been welcomed by eminent figures like the mythologist Joseph Campbell, who wrote a forward to Dr. Gimbutas' latest volume before he died in 1987, and the anthropologist Ashley Montagu, who hailed that book as "a benchmark in the history of civilization."

    But many other investigators of prehistoric Europe have not shared the enthusiasm. Bernard Wailes, a professor of anthropology at the University of Pennsylvania, says that most of Dr. Gimbutas' peers consider her "immensely knowledgeable but not very good in critical analysis. "

    "She amasses all the data and then leaps to conclusions without any intervening argument," Dr. Wailes said. "Most of us tend to say, oh my God, here goes Marija again," he said.

    Ruth Tringham is a professor of anthropology at the University of California at Berkeley, who is an authority on the same time and geographical area of prehistoric Europe as Dr. Gimbutas. Choosing pages at random from "The Language of the Goddess," she repeatedly voiced dismay over assertions that demanded, she said, serious qualifications.

    "No other archaeologist I know would express this certainty," Dr. Tringham said.

    Linda Ellis, an archaeologist at San Francisco State University ... makes it clear that she thinks Dr. Gimbutas has gone too far.

    David Anthony, an assistant professor of anthropology at Hartwick College in Oneonta, N.Y., whose area of research also coincide closely with Dr. Gimbutas's, said that contrary to her claims, the cultures of Old Europe built fortified sites that indicate the presence of warfare. There is also evidence of weapons, including some used as symbols of status, and of human sacrifice, hierarchy, and social inequality ...

    There is also no evidence that women played the central role, in either the social structure or the religion of Old Europe, he said. These were "important and impressive societies," he said, but rather than Dr. Gimbutas' "Walt Disney version" they were "extremely foreign to anything we're familiar with"...

    "In a way she's a very brave woman, very brave to step over the boundary and take a guess," said Dr. Ellis. But Dr. Ellis strongly rejects Dr. Gimbutas' detailed assertions.

    Dr. Gimbutas calls the enthusiastic reception of her work by artists and feminists "an incredible gift" coming late in her life. But "I was not a feminist and never had any thought I would be helping feminists," she said.

    Still, "The Language of the Goddess" rings with a fervent belief that knowledge about a Goddess-worshiping past can guide the world toward a sexually egalitarian, nonviolent, and "earth- centered" future.
    from "The Goddess Theory" by Jacques Leslie
    (Los Angeles Times Magazine, June 11, 1989)

    "Nevertheless, Gimbutas remains a black sheep within academia; even colleagues who admire her other work express skepticism about her description of ancient Europe. Edgar C. Polome, a leading Indo-European scholar at the University of Texas and co-editor of a volume of essays published in honor of Gimbutas, calls her portrayal of Old Europe "a bit of a dream- world." Kees Bolle, a UCLA religion history professor and a friend of Gimbutas', says she has "a peculiar romantic strand" that causes her to "overestimate" pre-Indo-European societies."

    I might be biased against her critics, but even those who say they are expert in the fieldwork she was involved with did not put in the time or discover what Marija did. Furthermore they require analysis through argument based on previous scholarship which she and I say was biased or not truly in evidence at all times in this particular region. People moved due not only to glaciers we are now discovering the interglacial periods caused major upheavals and social transformations including mass migrations north and south. If the patristic and patriarchal people fought and persecuted the red-heads or her primary focus or locus as I think they did, there would be different social structures and those who want to believe what existed until the 20th Century was all right and fine (in other words misogyny) can be correct about the larger groups who caused some of these movements. I also think this lead her people (Norse or Hyperborean) to become elite fighters and raiders who had a major influence in the very patriarchal regions.

    Still the argument will fester and we have found evidence for matriarchies and more evidence for the ethos of hatred and Empire. The Indo part of their Indo-European label is comprised of those who say the scholars lined up on the side of Empire have lied for "colonial" gain.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-09-2016 at 06:52 PM.

  3. #3
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    Jan 2015
    The James Legge translation of the Tao Te Ching or Book of Changes is interesting. The book may date to the seventh millennium BCE and thus could easily have roots before the meteor almost wiped humanity off the face of the Earth in the 9th Millennium - just in another area - perhaps. His translation reminds me of our binary coded Aymara computer language and the caduceus staffs with genetic influence and the ability to focus forces inside to kill a person from a distance such as these staffs did. They were later developed into the Tepaphone I have dealt with elsewhere.

    "There are actually four possible values for each of the lines; the two on/off values, and a line which changes from on to off or vice versa. Thus one cast of the I Ching can generate two different hexagrams, which adds depth to the interpretation. The sophistication of this method has not escaped modern interpretation, and the four-valued logic has been compared to the biochemistry of DNA amino acids. How a Neolithic shamans' divination technique presaged the basic logic of the human genome is one of the ageless mysteries."

    I could place this observation in every thread and still have to place it in many posts. The issue is less a matter of how many Ph. D.'s we produce I think we should have more, but the courses he suggests should make up more than those focussed on paradigm methodology. Marks should go to those who ask new questions and challenge the teacher and fellow students to extend and expand their horizons and intuition.

    "Historical speculation, philosophical argument, literary criticism, case histories, biography, semantic and semiotic analysis, ethnography - all these and more ought to be admissible as ways of telling our stories, and the less concern about method, the better. One becomes fastidious about method only when one has no story to tell.

    ...The alternative is to remain a shrivelled pseudo-science, useless for everything
    except the assembly line production of PH.D.s.

    Neil Postman.

    Flavin is a member or contributor to ESOP and his article which follows (and others I have commented upon) demonstrates a cursory to poor understanding of Ogham. If you look at his calendar wheel from the era of the beginning of Sumer herewith you can see something about Linear scripts worked on by Gimbutas that when you have looked at Marshack's work on Le Placard Baton and it's accurate lunar calendar that will strike you as obvious I hope. Marshack had to fight tooth and nail for about 25 years to get academics to accept it was more than scratches by farming implements. Remember also there are many Ogham tracts in many areas as agreed by top linguists including David Kelley who supported Fell on his Peterborough, Ontario Woden-Lithi translation as he identified the script as early Ogham or Tiffinaugh.

    "The meander or zigzag line is probably the oldest symboling structure, going back to an engraved ox-rib from Pech de l’Azé, France and dated to c. 200,000 BCE. [9] This simple design has had global currency and has established itself in many writing systems, often with similar meanings and sometimes with astronomic significance. [10]"

    In 'Secrets of the Ice Age'

    by Evan Hadingham from 1975 and page 75 he reports the following.

    "One of the most remarkable recent finds took place in the suburbs of Vladamir near Moscow, at a site known as Sungir... well preserved burials dated to 23,000 B.C... It is not known how the Paleolithic craftsmen managed to straighten the natural curvature of mammoth tusks to produce these remarkable weapons."

    That is true. There are many things modern science doesn't know and doesn't want to consider. How can we maintain our high opinion of ourselves in the evolutionary order or the intellect vs. soulful knowledge game of ego, if we examine the possibility of spiritual 'rocks' and other matter? We are clearly not as perfect as we should be, and perfection at a psychological or soulful level is not worth trying to achieve if one EXPECTS or stresses about it. However, it is necessary as a society for us to aim high and use the ethics of LOVE to try to achieve perfection. I have only briefly touched upon a number of things relating to the attunement with sub-atomic matter that may be connected to my mountains and these mammoth tusks. Some of these things include the Murrhine vases, 'rock-making', the 'Philosopher’s Stone', anti-earthquake engineering, 'laying on' of hands, psychic surgery and the biggest one of all 'direct cognition'. Findhorn’s leprechauns and large plants of today, are only a 'glimpse' into the world of spirits, elementals and the 'consciousness' within every nucleus that quantum or 'chaos' scientists of today have recently re-embarked upon.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-10-2016 at 08:37 PM.

  4. #4
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    Jan 2015
    P and q Brythonic are types of language derived from Ogham but already having elements of a local Gaelic. I suppose we could look into p as a reverse of q or vice versa and determine if it connects with the Elder Fupark or Futhark and how th migrated into just p as well as f being connected to P as we see with Finn to Phoenician.

    Truthfully I forget which movement of clans it relates to - from the era of Keltic (Keltoi, pre-Roman epithet) pan-tribal Brotherhood. My memory may never have had a clear picture about it being so connected to Britain, and I suspect the modern pagans of Britain who are creating a new pagan system are in fact not aware of much of their history at all. I vaguely recall it as a developing dialect out of northern France and Bretagne about the beginning of the Roman era. It might relate to the Veneti who came via Hallstatt in the third millennium who also crossed south into Italy and became a strong element Livy's family later is identified with. But after the Trojan War there were many further inflows to that area, such as what became the Etruscans.

    So let me say there were many movements of 'the people' or 'Tuatha' since the last Ice Age ended (and before which is a whole unknown issue). Gimbutas has done books on the Balts and Slavs as well as The Language of the Goddess.

    I will soon create a new thread for Druidry because the site I put here now is so neo-Druidic to Vascerri (Priest class in Italy) confused it makes some sense for me to try and make some sense out of what is a common perception about Druidry and it's many paths which always existed separate from the pan-Tribal or international Brotherhood. To clarify - Druidry or it's origins are largely uncertain. It is a Magian system including any and all knowledge which may have existed before the 8350 BPE meteor which almost eradicated humanity. The six king-bairds on the Pan-tribal council headed by Isis and Osiris speak to that possibility. The name still used for India is Bharat which is translated as Baird. Peter Berresford Ellis wrote that this is where Druidry began, and it is highly likely it is from that region that it re-appeared after the meteor caused all northern climates to be too cold for human habitation in any number.

    I choose one dialogue between two people on this site to illustrate the state of neo-Druidic perceptions. I say at best they are pagans who sense a former great culture.

    "Sep 6, 2014 at 9:14am lorna said:

    I guess the major difference is that Brythonic polytheism is essentially polytheistic and the gods are seen as real, whereas Druids can be pantheists, atheists etc. or hold archetypal views of deity. And I feel the need for commonality in regard to belief about deity...

    I almost feel like I'm crossing paths with the folk who have migrated toward Druidry.

    What are your personal understandings of the relationships between Brythonic Polytheism and Druidry? Why the change?

    {Draig responds}

    Yes I think that's a good distinction to make Lorna, and I do seem to have crossed backwards and forwards along those paths myself over the years. I don't personally see any contradiction between polytheism and nature-based paths although one does not imply the other. Druidry is a much broader and more inclusive approach, at least in the way it is practised today, while Brython has a much more specific focus on the gods and our relationship with them as individual deities, and so too to what we might learn from their historical as well as their current appearance in our culture of veneration and relationship with them.

    I don't see it as a change so much as a difference of emphasis. But I am aware that in Druidry the approach is more broadly spiritual than focused in the way it is here. I think that Brythonic polytheism can certainly express itself through Druidry, though not all druids would necessarily be at home here.

    The Path of the Awenydd:

    Shrine for Rigantona: "

    Abaris is a real person with credible accounts of his visits to Greece. He was the last Dean of Studies in the remnant Bairdic Education or Druidic system including Pythagoras who was initiated near Marseilles (Massalia - a Phoenician emporiae) at a Druidic University Abaris is a title meaning Rabbi or teacher.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-10-2016 at 08:25 PM.

  5. #5
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    Jan 2015
    Wikipedia gives us the beginning of the necessary new thread. The particular migration they refer to out of the region north of the Black Sea is far later than the original migrations of the sixth and seventh Millennium but it mentions peoples who they call indigenous who were assimilated. I say those they encountered were earlier Beaker People and even earlier but smaller initial migrations because most of the people who left the Black Sea area when it was inundated around 5300 BPE went south and east to Tarim and India. There are few (Maybe the Laplanders - see Eddas) who stayed north during the Ice Age. There were also some fishing and short term settlers in warm months. Each area would find local elemental energy forms and they would give them names and grow to understand how to work with these energies. Many of the clans already had clan familiars or totems, but the animals or insects of the new region would differ and some would adopt a new name.

    What Wikipedia has to say is (of course) rudimentary summary only but it dovetails with what was said in the Russian Nobility thread and in particular the 12th Century AD Romanoff return to former lands of their ancestors.

    "The Balts or Baltic peoples, defined as speakers of one of the Baltic languages, a branch of the Indo-European language family, are descended from a group of Indo-European tribes who settled the area between the lower Vistula and southeast shore of the Baltic Sea and upper Daugava and Dnieper rivers. Because the thousands of lakes and swamps in this area contributed to the Balts' geographical isolation, the Baltic languages retain a number of conservative or archaic features.

    It is possible [according to whom?] that around 3,500–2,500 B.C., there was massive migration of peoples representing the Corded Ware culture. They came from the southeast and spread all across Eastern and Central Europe, reaching even southern Finland. It is believed[by whom?] that Corded Ware culture peoples were Indo-European ancestors of many Europeans, including Balts. It is thought[by whom?] that those Indo-European newcomers were quite numerous and in the Eastern Baltic assimilated earlier indigenous cultures (Europidic cultures – Narva culture and Neman culture). Over time the new people formed the Baltic peoples and they spread in the area from the Baltic sea in the west to the Volga in the east.[citation needed]

    Some of the major authorities on Balts, such as Būga, Vasmer, Toporov and Trubachov,[citation needed] in conducting etymological studies of eastern European river names, were able to identify in certain regions names of specifically Baltic provenance, which most likely indicate where the Balts lived in prehistoric times. This information is summarized and synthesized by Marija Gimbutas in The Balts (1963) to obtain a likely proto-Baltic homeland. Its borders are approximately: from a line on the Pomeranian coast eastward to include or nearly include the present-day sites of Berlin, Warsaw, Kiev, and Kursk, northward through Moscow to the River Berzha, westward in an irregular line to the coast of the Gulf of Riga, north of Riga.


    A possible early reference to a Baltic people occurs in 98 CE, when Tacitus names a tribe living near the Baltic Sea (Mare Svebicum) as the Aesti (Aestiorum gentes) and describes them as amber gatherers. However, it is not clear if the Aesti mentioned by Tacitus were: (1) a (now-extinct) Baltic people (possibly synonymous with the Brus/Prūsa), or; (2) a Finno-Ugric people (e.g. modern Estonians). The Aesti appear to have inhabited the Sambian peninsula (in or near the present Kaliningrad Oblast[citation needed] .

    Over time, the area of Baltic habitation shrank, due to assimilation by other groups, and invasions. According to one of the theories which has gained considerable traction over the years, one of the western Baltic tribes, the Galindians, Galindae, or Goliad, migrated to the Eastern end of Baltic realm around the 4th century CE, and settled around modern day Moscow, Russia.[citation needed] Finally, according to Slavic chronicles of the time, they warred with Slavs, and perhaps, were defeated and assimilated some time in the 11th to 13th centuries.[citation needed]

    Balts became differentiated into Western and Eastern Balts in the late centuries BCE. The eastern Baltic region was inhabited by ancestors of the Western Balts: Brus/Prūsa ("Old Prussians"), Sudovians/Jotvingians, Scalvians, Nadruvians, and Curonians. The Eastern Balts, including the hypothesised Dniepr Balts, were living in modern-day Belarus, Ukraine and Russia.

    Subsequent Germanic and Gothic domination in the first half of the first millennium CE in Northern and Eastern Europe, as well as later Slavic expansion, caused large migrations of the Balts — first, the Galindae or Galindians towards the east, and later, Eastern Balts towards the west — until, in the 13th and 14th centuries, they reached the general area that the present-day Balts inhabit. Many other Eastern and Southern Balts either assimilated with other Balts, or Slavs in the 4th–7th centuries and were gradually slavicized."

    Most gods of the era from the seventh millennium BPE to the Trojan War era were not gods at all, as we think of them. This is made clear in the work of Robert Graves and Sir Flinders-Petrie which we have covered in conjunction with many other inputs. Totems and elementals are 'representations' of nature and the scientists or Peryllats of the Druid Order knew more than the priestly rituals might (for simplicity sake) include. Before the Trojan War and the rise of former colonies into modern Empires we call Classical or a Cradle of Civilization the education of the Druids lasted eighteen years and a further seven if the individual showed special attributes such as when they were making new alphabets for their colonies. That probably began in the fourth Millennium but MacDari says it was a full millennium of work and based on what we see in languages since Linear A and B beginnings in the DN or DNN homeland Gimbutas was working near the Don and Danube (Which carry the names of DN referred to by Homer and when vowels added is Danaus founders of Greece but also remnants who stayed in places along the way such as Macedonia.) - I will somewhat arbitrarily use the time 2300 BPE to 1300 BPE. The end of this era co-incides with the beginning of the end for Druidic or Bairdic co-operation between these once pan-tribal peoples.

    The DN or Gimbutas' core people of the Don area date back or can be traced back to Dolni (see DN in that) Vestonici where we have 27,000 BPE manufacturing sites with 700 kilns in one area. One of those kilns was a double fired approach capable of turning the ceramic soils to metals - and make swords. At first they were probably just copper tools but eventually we get the legendary Sword of Nuada or Excalibur. Unfortunately the Roman and Empire lies about aliens has infected all lore and history, some people even say the Tuatha de Danann are children of the Annunaki because one of their mythical pantheon is Danu (See D'ainu). But the reverse is true. The An to Bel (BL, Belinus, Ba'al and BBL or Byblos and Bible) system came from the Ainu who fathered or engineered white people in their breeding programs. You can watch the extent of the myth on this video.

    The city of Tiflis today was called Iberia a century ago. In the era of the migrations dealt with above it was a huge trading Emporiae system run from that city and Celtiberia which is now called Spain on the Iberian Peninsula. Tiflis in the Caucasus and white people called Caucasian who often as I am, had red hair - all part of what little clues I have followed for over fifty years.

    So we have academics who quote the best of the era before them and who stick within disciplines that do not study the other disciplines enough to even keep remotely close to updated. Then we have a lack of integration due to over-emphasis on minutiae in their chosen discipline which these people then have to earn a living at - teaching other fools who do not question or think - while attacking those who do - like Gimbutas, Hawkes, Steen-McIntyre, Meggars, Nuttall (just to name the women).

    But they all stick to the story line that they are at the zenith of human development or some racist Scale of Nature.

    Meanwhile people are fed up and getting more insight from ancient wisdom acquisition disciplines and healing methods like Yoga and acupuncture. The only new philosophy is a new word describing an old approach and recycling these approaches in psychology from one fad back to another. Thank dog for the atom-mysticists like Faraday (who was weak on Math but good on observing) and Sir William Crookes.

    Worse than these things is the outright destruction of artifacts deemed not in line with the paradigm theories. It did not start with St. Patrick who may have been responsible for 1200 hand drawn books being destroyed - he is generally acknowledged to have personally dealt with 150 Irish books by himself. He doctored the most important book of all. I think it is the book Strabo said he knew the Celtiberians had a 7,000 year written history of their people in. That would of course mean these people had a writing language 6000 years before his 'advanced' Greek culture we have been forced to learn about as they Hellenized and appropriated former civilized people who had colonized them. Then later you get churchians writing as if the Senchus Mor is an extant book of laws of the Irish when it is in fact doctored Roman propaganda rather than the 25,000 year history of the Keltoi or 'ancient ones'. Yep, and if you read Wikipedia you would believe the Roman Empire liars.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-10-2016 at 11:31 AM.

  6. #6
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    Jan 2015
    At this point it would be good to have a scholar who defends Gimbutas and her research. This person notes she included the southern shores of the Black Sea which I would agree are the same people who had once also been on the bottom of the Black Sea. Many lives were lost I suspect but I have read it took two weeks for the water to take out the land where the Bosporus is today and make the Black Sea. It had previously been much smaller and fresh water lake(s). The south shore definitely included the Hatti or Chatti who became the Hittites and later the Stuart Royals. They were important allies of other DNN including the Milesians and Danaus. I suspect they include Solon and his descendant Plato and it would not surprise me if they were elite members of many other later cultures of the whole of the Middle East including the Benjaminites and their cousins the Merovingians.

    They were Royals in Crete through the House of Mallia in 2200 BCE. They are related with the Shardana in Egypt and Sardinia and we have specific building and cistern technology to affirm these things. Stuart historians say they know their family through 20,000 years or more - I would like to see why they say this in a book of that era but I suspect it is mostly verbal tradition, I accept it because I have lots of evidence which ties in with it. I feel the same way about Gimbutas' work on Matriarchies (Matri-focal) and I think she is talking about equality and respect between genders that continues amongst the Irish until recently. That does not mean every woman was a Queen or all clans took the same approach. But in the Iroquoian of North America we see the same customs and laws - and the normal academics never put two and two together or integrate these people all over the world. I side with those who say Homer was talking about the Americas when he wrote about the Underworld.

    What I just wrote takes many books I have written to flesh out - full of other scholars and references including symbology which she focused on, technology, disciplined spirituality and much more.

    "The Thesis of Old Europe:

    By comparing the archaeological finds of Neolithic and Megalithic cultures in Europe and Anatolia, Gimbutas concluded that one may speak of an almost singular culture that dominated Europe, sharing a common system of symbols (systematized enough that one may assume that the symbol-system is a kind of early, sacred writing), a common, goddess-oriented religion and very similar artistic traditions and type of social organization, and that this culture was town-based and interacted through trading routes. Southeastern and Northwestern Old Europe were slightly different since the latter was Megalithic and employed a more abstract kind of art, but these two parts of Europe were still so close in their use of symbols that one may speak of one culture: “Old Europe”. This civilization lasted for several thousand years and was only destroyed through invasion during the late Neolithic, according to Gimbutas. Old Europe was recognized by the following characteristics: It was peaceful, egalitarian, matrifocal (woman-mother oriented) and worshipped a goddess or many goddesses.[2]

    Says Rodenborg:]

    “One of the more disputed archaeologists today is Marija Gimbutas…Her main interest since the 1970s has been the study of the European Neolithic cultures that she herself regard as pre-Indo-European. These cultures – which she since 1971 has referred to as “Old Europe” – she believes to be radically different from later cultures, which according to her were the results of widespread migrations and downright invasions, which totally changed the societal systems, religion and culture in Neolithic Europe.

    Marija Gimbutas is among many archaeologists, including her harshest critics, much respected for the immense scope of her knowledge and for her overview and mastery over the archaeological material…To this overview contributes the fact that she masters a number of Eastern European languages and that she thus has access to the Eastern European material. As mentioned, Gimbutas is much disputed, but most of the discussion has not touched her theory about “Old Europe.”[Translator´s emphasis].

    This has most often been ignored with silence, whereas her invasion theories and the thesis about the Indo-European origins has been fervently debated…Besides a short article by Brian Hauden, the only critical comments about Gimbutas´ studies of “Old Europe”…have been quite sour [ironic] remarks [without any reasons for criticism given]…

    Gimbutas has often been accused of idealizing the societies that she is describing, and this accusation is probably basic to the rejecting attitude towards discussing her model…scientifically, it is meaningless whether she “idealizes” or “paints black” her object…The only significant question is whether her thesis offers a reasonable picture of these societies…However, she does not “idealize” any more than that she can assume the existence of human sacrifice..

    …it is curious that many accuse her of “idealizing” Old Europe” based on her description of the culture as goddess-worshipping and matrifocal. One may ask oneself which of her critics really think that a female dominated theocracy…is an “ideal” or a “utopia”…

    Discussing “Old Europe”

    [In order to discuss the theories of Marija Gimbutas one needs to ask the following questions:]

    Is it reasonable, based on the accessible material, to formulate the hypothesis that Europe during the particular time period [The Neolithic, 7000 B.C.-3500 B.C.] as a whole was:
    3.Had a female dominated (“Matrifocal”) social organization?
    4.Has a culture that was strongly influences by a goddess dominated religion?
    5.Is “Old Europe a meaningful concept at all?

    [Gimbutas applies the concept] “Old Europe” in order to define the particular Southeastern European Neolithic culture. According to her opinion, this could be defined as a “civilization” based on the existence of a…system of writing, a (small) town life and an advanced temple cult…

    Gimbutas applies the concept] “Old Europe” in order to define the particular Southeastern European Neolithic culture. According to her opinion, this could be defined as a “civilization” based on the existence of a…system of writing, a (small) town life and an advanced temple cult…

    [Gimbutas, in “The Civilization of the Goddess” (1991) wrote: “It was, instead, a true civilization in the best meaning of the word. In the 5th and 4th millennia B.C., just before its demise in east-central Europe, Old Europeans had towns with a considerable concentration of population, temples several stories high, a sacred script, spacious houses of four or five rooms, professional ceramicists, weavers, copper and gold metallurgists, and other artisans producing a range of sophisticated goods. A flourishing network of trade routes existed that circulated items such as obsidian, shells, marble, copper, and salt over hundreds of kilometers…The rich display of religious symbolism which flowered in central Anatolia and in Old Europe is part of an unbroken continuity from Upper Paleolithic times.”]

    Later she extends the meaning of the concept [“Old Europe”] to embrace the whole of Europe before the extensive changes during the later Neolithic period…She defines the concept as Neolithic Europe before the upheavals of the late Neolithic…This culture had its roots in the Paleolithic. Regarding the religious symbolism, there are even elements that she connects to the Middle Paleolithic, and, – in an unusually bold guess – to the Older Paleolithic…!"

    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-10-2016 at 04:34 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    I forget who said "if you want to know what a Druid knows - ask a wild bee?" Maybe it was Bernard Mandeville in his BEE book. The BEES are important to be certain (Mormons and the House of Mallia and the first minted coins of the Phocaeans, and Napoleon's investiture robes as Holy ROMAN Emperor).I even throw a BEE in with "To Be or not to BEE." - occasionally. St. Columba said "Jesus is the new Druid!" He would know because he was the Arch-Druid selling out to Rome. But he did save 1200 Bairds.

    Yada - yada, blah and blah - eh? My point is - people say things and do not necessarily even care to verify what they say is true. Once a person is dead it gets easier to do it, and Druids are extinct or close to it.

    Now it might surprise you that people who call themselves Druids and have been members of OBOD for fifteen years would challenge someone like myself with my name, even if they did not know I authored a book on Druids (In it's second edition I just saw - I get nothing from the publisher.). I have written another book titled Druid's Eggs and one on Ogham and so on. But that is how cults go, they accept dogma and build on what people will accept when you say it with conviction. I asked him how his organization could be Druidic and survive the Roman bounties and Christian purges, and bribes. Here is another example; I just mentioned in the last post that Dryads were made or forced to become Sibylls or seers for the Romans. So I went to check on the Dryads and number one of the google hit parade was this person saying Dryads are not female Druids - they are Greek tree spirits. "About Druids and Druidry - Pŕganachd

    Jump to A lady druid is a “dryad”, right? - A lady druid is a dryad, right? No. A “dryad” is a Greek tree-spirit. It has nothing to do with druids.

    Here is someone with a different tune, calling the Druids a holy female sisterhood. Frankly I do not know which is worse.

    "Female Druids also known as dryads (Greek) or oak nymphs were oracular priestesses, each with her own personal tree spirit. Dryads were also known as priestesses of Artemis, whose souls dwelt in trees. Dryads could also assume the shapes of serpents and were called Hamadryads or Amadryades.

    Dryadism and druidism (Scottish) were two phases of the same religion, restricted to a female priesthood in the earlier, matriarchal stage, but later open to male priests as well. Irish churches were originally known by the old druidic name of dairtech, or “oak-house,” a sacred grove. The Christian church attacked the Druids for their paganism, and also for their tendency to include sacred women in their ranks."

    This is Gimbutas' area and where Dolni Vestonici had ceramics and alloying in 27,000 BCE. Needless to say the people promoting the Bible origins of a Cradle of Civilization never mention Dolni Vestonici where mother goddess figurines were the primary artform. The name fits the Tartar/Hun and DNN/Ainu link I am developing.

    "The Sumerians may not have been the first people to invent the earliest form of writing, which allegedly appeared c. 3500 B.C.E. The Tartaria tablets, found in the western part of Romania and dating back to around 5300 B.C.E, according to radiocarbon dating, suggest that it was in Eastern Europe that writing first appeared. Some experts have dubbed the writing the Old European Script or the Danube Script"

    What follows is instructive to what Gimbutas discovered even though it is much later in time. We are in need of research into who made up the Vikings after a Mayan body was found in Denmark. In fact we need to know the true history of Pirates - I suspect they have a lasting connection of a lot longer than any Empire.


    In the following jpeg you will see a shaman's drum with pictographic markings including a building with a cross or steeple on top. In North America these representations of man and how the energy of the cosmos enters man are done in rock kiosk forms. There are near runic and half Ogham art glyphs including what could be a "p' or Fupark (AKA futhark). It could be a tract but does not have enough symbology due to repetition of the teepees or something which looks like teepees. Nat Geo and S-A have said people crossed the Ice to America as much as 30,000 years ago.

    This is taken from art done when Carl Linnaeus returned from Lapland in Northern Sweden a long time ago.

    This linguist documents a patchwork theory has no validity and yet allows many other language systems might have developed in Europe. I suppose that would mean people did not travel - and intermingle - which we are certain they did.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-08-2016 at 10:57 AM. Reason: add content

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    This is from Hancock's forum and has a knowledgeable person discussing many sources I find of value as well as pointing you to other places that rocks are earthquake proofed.

    Author: David Campbell (209.151.112.---)
    Date: 21-Apr-09 15:18

    I first became aware of the megaliths of Malta and the submerged roads and stonework at a presentation David Hatcher Childress gave in Dallas a few years back. His comments on the earthquake proofing aspects of the megalithic architecture there and in South America impelled me to read further on Malta with increasing interest. This led me to get Graham's "Underworld", Rudgely's "Lost Civilizations of the Stone Age", Marija Gimbutas' "Civilization of the Goddess" and "Language of the Goddess" and a number of other books which discussed Malta. Gimbutas, in my opinion, was by far the most informative and detailed in shedding light on the mysterious architects of Malta and their relation to other megalith builders including the builders of Catal Huyuk. To me, Malta and the related megalithic cultures are more intriguing than Ancient Egypt because of their age and the fact less attention has been given to them in non-technical literature."

    David and I crossed paths in more than one site.

    The forming of metals into knives by the Mayans first started with meteorites, and probably this is true all over the world. The site of Rhoda near Meteor Crater in Arizona with excellent archaeological proof was ridiculed but should be revisited now that there are many other supposedly anomalous 'finds'. Forget the records of the Mayans and Incas that talk about white skinned bearded (the Maya don't have facial hair) and red haired people; we don't need to rely on mere legends of truthful people anymore. Certainly we know 'his'-story of the Euro-centric white men and Empire builders, is propaganda. So, I say meteorites and their uses and spiritual value led to very early man becoming acquisitive and a traveler, as well as a miner. How early? VERY! Perhaps as long ago as 1.5 million years ago when he noticed the meteorite metal on the tip of his throwing spear worked better than his straightened mammoth tusk spear. At Tulum a priest could speak from the center of a football stadium sized gathering place and be easily heard all over it. Engineers who know about acoustics say we could not do this until the early 20th C. They compare it to Carnegie Hall.

    Proceeding from the incentive to trade and the travel it required, leads to the 'cell diffusion' adepthoods like the de Danaan and the 'Red-Headed League of Megalith Builders'. There is archaeological evidence for all these things and they all fit with the pre-'his'-story of the Golden Age of Peace and Harmony that was on Malta and in all nature worship domains such as Gimbutas asserts. The secrets of the trade routes and the maps not made available until after the Templars were back-stabbed by the French King in the early 1300s makes for a lot of substantial proof and motive. These Portolan maps made trade around Europe easier for all people and put the final nail in the coffin of feudalism. That does not mean there aren't intrigues and counter-counter plots by those who kept the secret for many millennia. The attunements with the Earth Energy Grid that archaeology is proving with the Nazca lines and Don Robins has shown with the megaliths are part of the mapping enterprise as well.

    The Dardannae or de Danaan of Troy or Wilusia and the Hittite archives join interesting little pieces of the puzzles but are not the overall game of greed and corporate emporia of the Phoenicians: that made the Keltic clans break apart from within, as the aristocrats began to enjoy each other more than their fellow man. The Druids were the last bastion of the old shamanic nature worshippers that are at the root of Taoism and Yoga. The actual knowledge MacDari speaks to is more important than his historical assertions. This esoteric knowledge was secret and still remains in the hands of a few until this day. Some of it is irretrievably lost but little of it is ever considered by academics who talk to the media.

    The Exegesists or hermeneuts of the Catholic Encyclopedia deserve a glance. You can find it in the library or on the World Wide Web; when you read it you will see a complex web of knowledge and expertises coordinate to present an appearance of things known that are often disproven. Re-structuring the lies is a job that will require more effort and reach fewer people to the same extent in the coming years. Hopefully honesty will erupt in a ground-swell of individuals who say 'let's look at what we do and where we are going' the ethics and laws are not appropriate to forge the kind of world we want at all. Are we willing to give up our sacred cows in pursuit of ecumenical brotherhood? Let's start by ending gender inequality and starting to teach soulful sensuality so responsible people will again be the 'norm'. Ignorance IS the 'Original Sin' and we all must accept our ignorance as an opportunity for growth, rather than cling to each other in cults of denial!

    From the commentaries on Keltic lore that I have read and the references to the tales of Ossian commentators; I think there is a great deal of time up to the current and corrupt presentation. Corrupted by years of telling tales and Christian re-writes of the same tales. It therefore seems likely I would gain far less from the tales of Ossian than I might hope for. The archaeological and historic record serves me better I hope. The truth is all I can do is make guesses. The phrase 'out of _____was brought' suggested they were often on the move. The glacial effects were definitely a part of that for the period from 13,000 B.C. till 4,000 B.C. and where these four cities were at any particular time would make the telling of legends absolutely difficult to say for sure if that were the only factor. There is no question that major centers of influence can be identified and we can look to certain technologies and social factors or names and languages to help our guesswork. Memphis was a clearly important religious center with a focus on the magical sciences.

    Malta was more of an ashram or training center and might also have had the top secret 'chaos scientists' who worked on developing technologies like the Pyramid/Earth Energy Grid. There are those like Boorstein who claim Crete was Atlantis all on its own. The Iberias may have been associated in a corporate trading enterprise that included the Americas and Basque as well as the post flood region of the Black Sea. The region between the Black and Caspian Sea was known as Iberia and had a capitol or main city of the same name. It is now called Tiflis. The Iliad says the Amazons came from this region. The Amazons were women fighters of the Kelts as I see it. At the same time Iberia was developing the Tagus to Massalia (current Marseilles) region with Phocaean and Milesian peoples who are remnants of the Royal House of Mallia on Crete from 2000BC. when the anti-egalitarian movement really took off. In the Bible we read about the ships of Tarshis that traveled between these two Iberias, and their outposts including Anatolian archaeological digs.

    As usual we have people assuming things not in evidence about Neolithic people as they impose modern technological understandings upon a different society with different technology and spiritual goals. I am referring to this useful link with many pictures or illustrations that include the Earth Mother (Gaia) or a matriarchal influence.

    Theology has devised numerous methods to warp and weave the nature of reality into Trinitarian constructs far removed from the Triune Nature of Man. How does one put their mind around a ‘one god’ with ‘Laddio, Daddio and Spook’? Notice the definite lack
    of Taoist or feminine content in this Monotheism. In the pantheon of a religion that says there should be no graven images the production of icons and relics or Saints (demi- gods), or all the cherubim and angels seems a little busy and full of superstition to me.
    Some day maybe someone will be able to explain how it is even as monotheistic as the pagan ideals, which represent nature and its forces. Amun was part of the Sphinx and is a primary or one god confluence of force. Aten is little different and a refinement of that
    theme. Ahken –‘aten’ may have been Moses/Nefertiti and all the other roles he played as he sought power on both sides of the issues while initiating male domination in the pantheon headed by Jehovah rather than the dual gender YHVH. Aton and Atonement or
    at-one-ment is more my style of viewing things. What a web of deceit this all has been! Is man really the highest form of life on earth? I wonder about the wolf and its ethics of family orientation and then I see wolf-like behaviour in cronyistic elites.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-27-2016 at 08:00 AM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    The uncertainties regarding the people who settled Greece are far less uncertain if you say - these people who are Caucasians travelled for many millennia and developed sea travel (Pelasgoie he says - Sea People in my translation). They once were in the Caucasus and just start with that and stop all the name calling and racial stuff - pretty soon it all makes sense.

    Since people at various times were few in number and faced devastation from weather, meteors and glacial or other threats you can be sure they welcomed the arrival of new people with certain knowledge they could all benefit by sharing. So that takes you to about 7,000 BCE and the beginning of all these Empires was not far off - so all the myths and gods or people calling themselves gods, aliens and kings or Pharaohs started to cause what we have refined into his - story or miss-story; it is not really such a mystery if you regard it as mostly propaganda which is about all it is unless there is scientific proof to back it up. Some of Yuri's English is a little rough.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-18-2016 at 09:19 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    As we have seen there are many opinions about Gimbutas' work and ideas. To support her is dangerous if you wish to advance your career in many institutions. It is not as serious a crime against academic mendacity as it is to consider Churchward to have been more correct by subsequent comparison with his detractors. Of course the same is true for any support for facts even when those facts are unassailable, if you integrate those facts. You must be careful if you show people not only were not stupid but they did not hang around what we have decided history must portray. On the other hand there truly are many weird theories and fraudulent modern authors or TV productions backed by unsavory characters in the Edgar Cayce Foundation genre including those educated by money from his Foundation including Hawass and Lehner.

    The linguists and anthropologists are far more open to integrating facts and seeing the influence trade and travel had on our culture. Mormon scholars in every field are trying to show America was populated far earlier than our paradigm nationalistic fervour has sought to maintain in it's racist past legacy against Jews, Blacks and even the savages or heathens who were here when Old European Dark Age oppressors arrived with diseases on dogs (They knew what would result.) to eliminate prior peoples from all over the world who had built a better way of life over many millennia.

    The same is true when you start to show Crete and Greece had similar origins. Cyrus Gordon was at the center of many such debates including the Paraiba stones found near the mouth of the Amazon, and the Bat Creek controversy. With the advent of further proofs provided by archaeology at places like Point Rosee in Newfoundland this month, and the use of magnetics and ground penetrating radar or lasers, DNA, thermoluminescence and many new tools - you would expect some forthcoming academic retrenchments beyond the acknowledgements about Clovis myths or Norse (Irish) visitors. The obituary for Cyrus Gordon in the New York Times gives you a starting point for further analysis.

    "Ugaritic was used in coastal Syria, mainly in the 14th century B.C., and its literature reflects the many contacts that its ancient speakers must have had with speakers of Hebrew at the eastern end of the Mediterranean. It was discovered by the modern world in 1929, when Ugaritic inscriptions were unearthed by French excavations at the site of the ancient city of Ugarit, capital of the kingdom of the same name, in the west of modern Syria. Dr. Gordon published the first of his books on the language in 1940.

    Dr. Gordon also gained attention in 1962 when he said he had determined that ancient Crete's Minoan tongue was Northwest Semitic or, broadly speaking, Phoenician. He said in an interview then that this conclusion was a distilling of his earlier theory that the Cretan tongue might have been Akkadian, a Semitic language spoken in ancient Mesopotamia.

    The kingdom of ancient Crete attained its economic and cultural peak around 1600 B.C. It then broke down, but prospered anew after being settled by Dorian Greeks.

    Dr. Gordon's conclusion about its ancient language was based on his study of an ancient Minoan script that scholars call Linear Script A. In the 1962 interview, he said his analysis of Minoan texts furnished new corroboration of his longstanding theory that the Greek and Hebrew cultures stemmed in common from a Semitic heritage that spanned the eastern Mediterranean from Greece to Palestine in the Minoan era.

    That view conflicted with the conventional opinion of classical and Near Eastern scholars — that the Greek and Hebrew cultures, though in contact in ancient times, had separate roots — and Dr. Gordon's opinion never gained broad acceptance among academics.

    Dr. Gordon also contended that Hebrew inscriptions many centuries old had been found at two sites in the southeastern United States. Those inscriptions, he further maintained, indicated that Jews had arrived here before Columbus. Frank Moore Cross, a retired professor of Hebrew and other Semitic languages at Harvard, said in an interview recently that Dr. Gordon was "in many ways a great scholar" but that this belief "simply did not make sense.""

    And if you are a weak me-too thinker all you have to do is agree with Mr. Cross and thus avoid the inevitable crucifixion you otherwise will face, which Professor Fritz Heichelheim told my assistant as he was getting his Honour's Degree in Classical History at the University of Toronto.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-19-2016 at 07:39 AM.

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