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Thread: Mahabharata and The Trojan War

  1. #1
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    Mahabharata and The Trojan War

    Since the sons of Aeneus play such an important role in the foundation myths of all modern or Classical Empires we have been subjected to, it might have merit to read the story and see coins made to continue to promote it. Coins are money and money after all is said and done is why myths are made. Agamemnon got fifty ships from a former suitor of Helen and 49 were clay ship toys.

    http://www.ancientcoinage.org/the-trojan-war.html

    You cannot read the myth of Troy without seeing the lies of Schliemann.

    http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320his...des/04troy.pdf

    Despite what questions about the fact of the site archaeology has excavated raised in the above link we have assurances that it is from this site. It should always be remembered that the silts washed in or out caused these cities to have to move many times. Then we should remember the major quakes and tidal waves. No doubt the mouth of the Hellespont or Bosporus has been important since it was created around 5200 BPE or BCE if you prefer. The names of the Hellespont also tells us the main race or clan of white people who founded all these Mediterranean colonies - the DNN or Dandennae are sometimes called Dardannae and so on. It was the Dardanelles.

    "Schliemann would add 2000 years to Western history, which had previously gone back only as far as the first Olympiad of 776 BCE.

    The excavations continued throughout the 20th century CE and continue to the present day and they have revealed nine different cities and no less than 46 levels of inhabitation at the site. These have been labelled Troy I to Troy IX after Schliemann’s (and his successor Dorpfeld’s) original classification. This has since been slightly adjusted to incorporate radio-carbon dating results from the early 21st century CE."


    http://www.ancient.eu/troy/

    Caesar I and Caesar II were games I enjoyed. I expect games are much more intricate today. They are doing more to educate people or get them interested that school ever did - I think. Here is a good rendition of the Roman connection to Troy. It is about as accurate as most history or myth.

    http://medieval2.heavengames.com/cgi...10,9261,60,all

    I have dabbled in reading Homer but I have not done the work to read Homer's Iliad. I take the research of others who have said his tale takes place in 19 theatres of operation and that his underworld is the Americas because I have other evidences in archaeology and almost every other science to go by. But this scholar mentions many theatres in a somewhat humorous fashion for you to enjoy so I put it here,

    "An ugly secret, sometimes betrayed by the sudden jerk of the head of the dozing reader, admits in muffled tones that a substantial proportion of what is recognized as great literature is boring. The definitive work on the tedium of great art has yet to be written, but it would doubtless include lengthy chapters on The Fairy Queen, La Nouvelle Héloïse, Wilhelm Meister, I Promessi Sposi, Balzac’s 50 page description of a card game played in only one area of Normandy—I’ll leave my readers to supply their own candidates for full treatment. Wretch that I am, I have to admit that I never got past page 37 of Broch’s Death of Virgil. Now, among Greek texts frequently appearing as finalists for The Most Boring Award are undoubtedly the Catalogue of Ships and the so-called Battle Books of the Iliad.

    My title is Homer’s Theater of Troy with a play on three meanings of the word “theater”; first, a theater of war offering a synoptic vision of a military campaign; then, theater as a place for spectators to observe a dramatic performance. Derived from the extraordinarily rich Greek terminology involving sight, theesthai signifies a particular kind of seeing, one in which the act of perceiving elicits wonder in the beholder. Finally, somewhat anachronistically, I am alluding to what was known in the Renaissance as the “theater of memory,” a gloriously complex version of the classical mnemonic system of loci.1

    Descriptions of battle take up fully one third of the Iliad. Of the poem’s 360 named characters, 232 are warriors killed or wounded (cf. Mueller 1984: 82).2 Outside of the rare but notorious instances of Homer’s nodding when a character, once killed, appears later to fight again,3 the poet is remarkable in his ability to keep his characters on the battlefield straight. At each moment, he seems to know the location of his characters; and if his attention shifts elsewhere for a while and then returns, he finds them again where they belong, whether in the same place or where they were headed. My question here is: how does he do it? Over the course of thousands of verses, we find astonishingly little confusion. His remarkable control over the activities of his characters becomes most evident when the narrative splits the battles into several arenas. Anyone who has read the Iliad will remember, perhaps not so fondly, the Battle Books, particularly Books 12–15. The narrative is only occasionally relieved by short “obituaries,” similes, and the shenanigans of the gods (inter alia the high comedy of Hera’s seduction of Zeus). But after the major Greek heroes (with the exception of Ajax) have been put out of commission, for the most part we are assaulted with a welter of names, some appearing only as “cannon fodder,” and relentless descriptions of wounding and slaughter, many quite grisly and grotesque. Indeed, the whole sequence constitutes a monumental example of Homeric retardation;"


    https://classicalstudies.org/sites/d...ments/Clay.pdf

    The Battle of Cumae and all the other battles of the era are probably not unconnected with the combatants from the Trojan War, and yet these people switched allegiances often so it is hard to determine who is doing what for whom or to whom. Reserves or distant allegiances often were enough to swing the tide against any party to every contest. And the people behind the scenes sometimes enjoyed seeing their 'champion' or hero match up against their opposing foe who often was part of the developing nobility who once claimed descent from the Gods. So, a student trying to grasp this insane rigmarole which continued into the 20th Century is justified in wondering what is this ____ and why should we continue to learn about it. My reply to a comment like that is "We must end the game or Hegelian Dialectic which includes these fake gods and nobles who really are not as important as they like to have us believe. They destroyed the prior cultures and they will continue to do things of little or no value if we do not learn their games and act."
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-28-2016 at 02:05 PM.

  2. #2
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    It seems the carbon dating disputes about Trojan War era pottery and the book by Homer are being resolved. It really does not matter. The Dardanelles and the DNN or Danaus who settled Greece or the whole region is what matters. They were certainly in Troy under whatever name we choose to give in in many different eras we now choose to divide history into. There is a similar dating issue with the influence of certain foreigners (Hyksos) in Egypt. You must know it is all guesswork by now. If you do not stand back and look at the longer term influence of various families and peoples like the Sea Peoples all you will get, is a pain in various regions on the map and in your body. This extensive scholarship says the Exodus is tied in with the Hyksos expulsion from Egypt. I agree but I also say these expulsions including the later Diaspora include only those who were not needed to manage the territory they were being thrown out from. In my way of thinking it is more properly called a movement of assets to expand the real control over a larger territory no matter what we call the nation or what propaganda the Pharaoh may cause to be written.

    Think about it (Without the recent clay tablets found in Iraq which confirm my theory years after I wrote it.) would you just throw them out to come back stronger than before? If you had them in this position would you not take their wealth and eliminate them - as has been done with lesser Jews we call Ashkenazi? But remember the authors of the Bible who said we are all descended from Adam and Eve did not know evolution and the million or more years civilized and thinking people have lived on Earth. But still academia has these Bible Narratives to teach as they were taught and so the story stays despite the facts.

    "4Q559 Biblical Chronology

    There are five fragments from the Dead Sea Scrolls that list a chronology. Fragments two and three go from Abraham to Aaron with the formula X was Y years old when he begot Z which says:

    Abraham was 99 years old when he begot Isaac. Isaac was 60 years old when he begot Jacob. Jacob was 65 years old when he begot Levi. Levi was 34 years old when he begot Qahat. Qahat was 29 years old when he begot Amram. Amram was 110 years old when he begot Aaron (Martinez 1996, 228).

    When these numbers are all tallied from the birth of Isaac to Aaron there are 298 years. At least 80 years need to be added to get to the Exodus, but this is only 378 years. This may indicate that Aaron was 22 years older than Moses unless the 400 years are calculated from the promise to Abraham. In Fragment 4 Joshua is said to be 35 years in Gilgal and in Timnath Serah for 20 years (Martinez 1996, 288). Joshua died when he was 110 years old of which forty years were spent in the wilderness. This would make Joshua 15 years old when he left Egypt.

    4Q180-1 Ages of the World

    These fragments deal with predestination that God from the very beginning has foreordained history (Wise, Abegg, & Cook 1996, 238). Ten generations were decreed from Shem to Abraham.

    Fragment one of 4Q180 says:

    Interpretation concerning the ages which God has made: An age to achieve [all that there is] and all that will be. Before creating them he determined their operations [according to the precise sequence of the ages,] one age after another age. And this is engraved on the [heavenly] tablets [for the sons of men,] [for] /all/ the ages of their dominion. This is the sequence of the so[ns of Noah, from Shem to Abraham,] [until he sired Isaac; the ten generations] (Martinez 1992, 211-12).

    In Luke chapter three there are 11 generations from Shem to Abraham because "Cainan" is included in the LXX, but not in the Masoritic text.

    This fragment, 4Q180, follows the MT, and not the LXX. Josephus also says that Abraham is the tenth from Noah, and Noah is the tenth from Adam (1830, 31; Antiquities of the Jews Book I.7.5). Enoch is called the 7th from Adam in Jude 14 which follows this same numbering pattern. Ten is a nice round number for genealogies, as is the 3 groups of 14 names of Matthew's genealogy in chapter one which suggests an edited version. It is critical in understanding ancient chronology that names are added and omitted from genealogies in order to be symmetrical (Wilson 1977)."


    http://www.bibleandscience.com/archa...exodusdate.htm

    Recall that we also have archaeological proof from Hittite or Anatolian digs which shows the propaganda of people with the name Ramses is just that - lies. And we have Nat Geo from this era in an article by Rick Gore quoting the likes of Lord Renfrew saying all this stuff is not real. Then we have Jewish Garrisons which remained in Egypt on a very defendable island called Elephantine and it is not just me who knows these things. I have quoted Ingersoll and others from over the last two centuries - starting with Flinders-Petrie, I did not need Nat Geo to tell me what was already obvious.

    As suspected there are the connections way beyond just the Baltic. In fact the Hittite or Hatti Stuart Royals make the scene right where the Aeneunati met in the Trojan War era. These are the forerunners of the Bilderbergs who met once a year - on board ships rather than the Rothschild (Benjaminite) Hotels. I see and have mentioned the Nautonnier name heading up the Priory that means something similar to Aeneunati as well. Then you can wrap what Roger of Sicily and the Vikings were doing into the whole scene. There is no book done on this through line of history.

    "1209 - Albigensian Cathar Crusade (1209–1229) was a 20-year military campaign initiated by the Catholic Church to eliminate the Cathar heresy in Languedoc - Notice Twenty Years!

    Ok, Let's compare the Hanseatic league arms symbol ( Coat of Arms of the Hanse - Merchants of London ) to Hittite Eagle from an Anatolia Hittite vessel... ~1300 B.C. :|


    http://www.mygen.com/users/outlaw/Ou...tic_League.htm

    This may be one of the best illustrations of why a university course teaching a specific history of a country or nation in just one area will miss what really matters. It deserves to be placed with the Catalan thread and the mystery of Columbus and the Borgia intrigue as well. I have connected the Huguenot who were Cathars to the Merovingian Lord Astor who brought many to America. I have connected Champlain and the Templar fleet as well as Robert the Bruce. But this adds a whole new realm.

    "Forces of the Hanseatic League; cavalry & allies, 1375-1425 ...

    https://www.pinterest.com/pin/385480049334142233/
    Battle of Muret on 12 September 1213 the Crusading army of Simon IV de Montfort defeated the Catharist, Aragonese and Catalan forces of Peter II of Aragon, ...
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-14-2016 at 07:47 PM.

  3. #3
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    I agree there is a need to do more TV shows on the Trojan War (and other things connected with it, including the 400 year Dark Age before a free trade zone in Naucratis and the Phoenician (Silesian etc - to Viking Pirates)) business men or Emporiae.

    "Archaeological Search for the Truth Behind the Iliad
    8/10
    Author: winandine from Alberta, Canada
    6 September 2004

    Friend rented this DVD from a local eclectic video shop. The title made it sound very dry, but we started with the special feature of Michael Wood's commentary on the making of the original television series. His enthusiasm was contagious, and the series proved to be very satisfying.

    Wood started in Berlin where some artifacts from Troy remained after the devastation of World War II. From there he traveled to the Mediterranean, Turkey, and Wales to explore how much truth was in the oral story told by Homer in the Iliad. Even for non-archeology buffs, Wood brings to life the heartbreak and duplicity of Schliemann, the first to excavate (and possibly destroy portions of) Troy. This is followed by Wilhelm Dörpfeld, Schliemann's heir, who explored further around the site, exposing what might be the Troy described by Homer. Thirdly discussed is the influential Britan, Arthur Evans, who unearthed Minos at Minos at Knossos. Lastly, we learn about Carl Blagan, an American who extracted further evidence from Troy.

    This series includes a fascinating look into a young science, archeology, and the role that speculation and interpretation plays in archaeological investigations. It is interesting to hear that some of Wood's speculation has since become accepted as a probable historical version.

    I was a little disappointed that the series did not venture further into the 'cracking' of the Linear B hieroglyphics. {If he called them hieroglyphics that is misleading.} However, it does a great job of proving that the Iliad was based upon fact: There was a Trojan society, and that for example, Hector and Paris were real people. From the written history of the Hittites, we gain a tantalizing first- and second-hand documentation of Greek and Trojan history. Who knew that cuneiform writing could be so interesting? "


    DNA data alone makes a re-do worthwhile. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0409571/reviews
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-05-2016 at 08:35 PM.

  4. #4
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    Then we may get access to JSTOR and the poet Phaedrus whose identity seems unknown. The commentary about the location of Troy being unknown is a little far fetched but to have many sites where Trojan Wealth or the abodes of it's royals - that I can believe. The interest in Roman people is natural given that Rome was founded by those who fought in the Trojan War - as I see it.

    "Phaedrus The Fabulous

    EDWARD CHAMPLIN

    In the Prologue to the third book of his fables, Phaedrus complains bitterly to a patron. Even though he, Phaedrus, was born like the Muses on the slopes of Olympus, and even though he has devoted his life not to the gathering of sweet lucre but to the study of poetry (docto labori), it is only with scorn that he is received among the company of poets (3 pr. 1-25). But then to business:

    Sed iam quodcumque fuerit, ut dixit Sinon, Ad regem cum Dardaniae perductus foret, Librum exarabo tertium Aesopi stilo, Honori et meritis dedicans ilium tuis. (3 pr. 27-30)

    But now, 'whatever may come of it' (as Sinon said when he was led before the King of Dardania {The DNN like Hercules}), I will trace out a third book with Aesop's pen, dedicating it to you in recognition of your honour and worth.

    The poet refers to the second book of the Aeneid (z.yjfi.), where the wretched Sinon addresses King Priam:

    'Cuneta equidem tibi, rex, fuerit quodcumque, fatebor / vera', 'I shall confess to you the whole truth, O king, come what may'.

    He then tells the Trojans a pack of lies, and persuades them to drag the Wooden Horse into their city. Troy falls. That Phaedrus drew attention to Sinon at Troy in the autobiographical Prologue to Book 3 is curious, in the light of what he offers in the Epilogue to the same Book 3. There he repeats his appeal to his patron, and concludes with complaint about the undeserved insults which he has suffered from unnamed detractors:

    Qui sint, requires; apparebunt tempore. Ego, quondam legi quam puer sententiam, 'Palam muttire plebeio piaculum est', Dum sanitas constabit, pulchre meminero. (3 ep. 32-5)

    'Who are they?' you ask. They will be seen in time. As for me, as long as my wits remain unshaken, I shall keep well in mind a maxim that I once read as a boy: 'It is sacrilege for a man of low birth to mutter in public'.

    Here the words quoted come from Ennius' now lost tragedy Telephus. A son of Hercules, Telephus was the ruler of Mysia who repelled the Greek expedition when it mistook his kingdom for Troy. In the battle he received an incurable wound from the spear of Achilles, and Apollo's oracle told him that only the thing that had hurt him could cure him. The Greek navy was blown back to Greece, so Telephus went to Agamemnon disguised as a beggar, kidnapped the infant Orestes, and threatened to kill him unless Agamemnon would help him. In fact, Agamemnon was more than eager to aid the kidnapper, since another oracle had informed him that the Greeks would never get to Troy without the guidance of Telephus. Achilles then, at his request, rubbed rust from his spear into Tele phus' wound, and it was cured. Telephus in return advised the Greeks of the proper course to steer for Troy, but he declined to join their expedition since his wife was the daughter of King Priam. The adage, that it is an offence requiring expiation for a common man to complain openly, was spoken by him in his beggarly disguise, presumably before the Greek kings gathered at Argos, or possibly by someone else rebuking him.1 Thus Phaedrus' third book ends as it begins, autobiographically, with allusion to a disguised Greek trickster, an apparent friend of Troy who would help to bring about the city's destruction. The two passages happen to quote, explicitly and unusually, lines from Rome's two great poets, Vergil and Ennius, and they happen to frame the middle of what would prove to be five books of poems. Both appear in autobiographical contexts. We know that Vergil's Sinon, the outcast, filthy and (in some versions of the story) self mutilated, was in reality of noble birth, first cousin to Ulysses, grandson of Autolycus the son of Hermes, and according to some himself son of Sisyphus, King of Corinth. We also know that Ennius' Telephus, the wounded beggar, clad in his squalid stola, was in reality a king, son of Hercules the son of Jupiter, and of Auge, daughter of Aleus, King of Tegea. Phaedrus' 'Phaedrus', the embittered, elderly Greek freedman, in each case appropriates to himself words spoken by them in deception. The Aesopean moral was not to take anything at face value: 'decipit frons prima multos' (4.2.5-6). Was Phaedrus too a prince in disguise?

    With the new millennium, Phaedrus and the ancient fable are ever more in fashion. Study of the fable, including the poems of Phaedrus, has been deservedly stimulated by the appearance of a massive history and taxonomy of the Graeco-Latin fable, by the second edition of an excellent brief introduction to the ancient fable, and by the first serious English translation of 'Aesop's Fables'. Phaedrus himself has received close attention in two important books and in a substantial commentary, not to mention a host of scholarly papers.2 Each of these works is valuable, but they all share the assumption that Phaedrus was who he seems to say he was, a Greek-born 'freedman writing to include himself in the high society of Latin letters', or 'a Greek freedman imbued with cynicism and stoicism, or moralism in general, a member of the more or less underground opposition to the empire', or an author whose work offers 'the promise of a rare glimpse, if through a glass darkly, into the mental furniture of the man in the ancient (Hellenistic) street'.3 But what if Phaedrus was not who he claimed to be?"


    https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/...Phaedrus_0.pdf

    This Phaedrus is not to be confused with the book of Plato addressing Socrates' teachings.

    http://sfbay-anarchists.org/wp-conte...o-Phaedrus.pdf
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-08-2016 at 09:45 AM.

  5. #5
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    By studying one nation or people we often miss what is behind many nations and how connected we all truly are, in every way.

    The region we call Turkey today was important before the Black Sea was created in 5300 BCE. We have Catal Hayuk, Catal Alicia, Gobekli Tepi and Smyrna archaeology to attest to these statements. What archaeology finds in the era just after the great meteor hit in 8350 BCE will reflect a lot less on what was there or elsewhere in the world before the millennia or more of nuclear winter and tidal waves destruction which occurred as a result of the earthquakes, volcanoes and diseases which followed that event.

    Although there was no Noah's Ark of such proportion as Ron Wyatt or other myth-making money-grubbing liars tell us, it is entirely possible that the people went to the mountains to survive the early cataclysm mentioned. So it is interesting to see some artifacts might exist on the mythical Mr. Ararat. The other interesting event which history recounts in the Mahabharata (Which includes my clan name Bharat or BRD - as I have detailed in translation.) sees men of the north coming into the sub-continent and waging war or immigrating to their emporiae and colonies. Was this when the Black Sea event occurred as many Indian scholars say? I am certain it was not when the European colonial forces in history say it was (1500 BCE is a Trojan War era event and can be connected thereto.). But it is possible all three dates had such northern incursions and that is my preferred explanation.

    The other area of great involvement in all of this is the Taklamakand Desert, Urumchi, Altaic Mountain region (and other names) which Clyde Winters linguistically shows is connected to India (Bharat) through trade in the early eras and I show is connected to Troy from the book Mummies of Urumchi. It is a likely location for the Hindu motherland location called Mt. Meru. That connects with Harappa to Dwarka and every one of these events as well. Gene Matlock explains Dwarka, Mohenjo, Ilavarta or Harappa as a Phoenician origin and colonizing area which I agree it is, but I say the Ainu predate his Phoenicians and I go back even before there were white people in my explanations. I use different but connected linguistics and archaeology, it does not matter which of us is right. No doubt there is much more proof to be found and satellite imaging systems have already found a lot on the Silk Roads and near Angkor Wat which does connect. DNA is my greatest support now, and I expect more will come to show the important connections between Ainu who we now know colonized the whole Pacific including the Americas; and what Churchward called Mu (not a separate continent) and Mayax.

    Rongorongo connects Easter Island, Nazca and Magan regions of Northern India or the Persian Gulf. All of these are DNA proven places of Ainu travel with their red heads. That last part is not yet, DNA proven - but the red heads were in those places with the Ainu and despite what the Bible says about aliens and Nephilim I have a more realistic human explanation.

    Sutton and his book showing the connection between Hitler and Rothschild bankers is quoted by racist haters who do not know the Rothschilds prey on Jews and have for at least five millennia and they wrote the Bible to give themselves the monopoly on usury and share other money with their elite friends. One of the clans they are friends with are the Merovingian Sea people who include Onassis's family in Smyrna and the monopoly they had in shipping and drugs since the era of the Anatolian Blue Lotus. Their Kabbalah and the earlier Qabala can be seen in every part of the world with the Tree of Life having Cosmic Fire on top and Cosmic Ice down below. Knowledge began before languages so do not limit the Qabala or Verbal Tradition in time or era.

    These racist haters will never learn or read the Halakah which establishes the hierarchy and who can (by law) do what to whom. Some are beginning to see how almost every genocide is attributable to elites except the ones their sometimes friends do to them. The Cathar era is a study in Hegelian play, and Rome or Empire, to beat any moral person to a near death state. But few study it anyway. Elite management is preferable to corrupt fools though they have tried many times to re-build Brotherhood they have suffered mightily for it. Yes, the elites were behind such efforts as the Enlightenment Experiment, Cathars, Gracchi, Asoka and more. The unenlightened built fires for them and their children.

    The Kabbalah is important in that it explains a little of the Donmeh connection in Anatolia which can also be connected to what happened recently in the Balkans which the Bogomil/Cathars. What the Bible thumper calls the opposite of God's intentions requires psychiatric analysis but suffice it to say, yes, there is some truth in it too. Kabbalists do utilize forces we all can use if we would study, and they have been part of every major religion, I ask you to see the work of Malachi Martin who consulted on it for three Popes of the 20th Century. The saying "History repeats" is true and perhaps we all need to stop that - will eating cucumbers have to stop too - I like them even if they do also repeat on a sour stomach. Can we ever learn?

    Of course you should check my facts and you will find there are many different opinions and a lot of conflicts between every opinion. Here is one starting point. http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_histor...ab_vartak.html
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-14-2016 at 05:37 AM.

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