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Thread: Language and Symbols - Origins

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Language and Symbols - Origins

    If I could have discussed symbols with Joseph Campbell, or his Eranos friends I would be light years ahead of where I am. The PBS series with Joseph Campbell interviewed by Bill Moyers is what the History Channel should strive for. George Lucas says it was Campbell's work which lead to Star Wars - and O - BE - one is at-one-ment. There is no SIN when one atones - one is already ONE. It is what Sir James Frazer attempted to convey in The Golden Bough. The really big question is Kan u BE? Where are those droids?

    A reasonable though limiting insight on language origins here -

    George can be forgiven for re-gurgitating the common wisdom in academia about Linear A or B and the denial of spoken languages from a long time ago. He probably has heard about Gimbutas and seen the origins of his Greek or Anatolian scripts you can see after clicking on his homepage and going to language origins. You can look at the Tartarian Tablet thread for one aspect of Gimbutas' work, but that is not the first script - as we know - see Ogham thread.

    "It is an intriguing question, to which we may never have a complete answer: How did we get from animal vocalization (barks, howls, calls...) to human language?

    Animals often make use of signs, which point to what they represent, but they don’t use symbols, which are arbitrary and conventional. Examples of signs include sniffles as a sign of an on-coming cold, clouds as a sign of rain, or a scent as a sign of territory. Symbols include things like the words we use. Dog, Hund, chien, cane, perro -- these are symbols that refer to the creature so named, yet each one contains nothing in it that in anyway indicates that creature.

    In addition, language is a system of symbols, with several levels of organization, at least phonetics (the sounds), syntax (the grammar), and semantics (the meanings).

    So when did language begin? At the very beginnings of the genus Homo, perhaps 4 or 5 million years ago? Before that? Or with the advent of modern man, Cro-magnon, some 125,000 years ago? Did the neanderthal speak? We don’t know.

    There are many theories about the origins of language. Many of these have traditional amusing names (invented by Max Müller and George Romanes a century ago), and I will create a couple more where needed.

    1. The mama theory. Language began with the easiest syllables attached to the most significant objects.

    2. The ta-ta theory. Sir Richard Paget, influenced by Darwin, believed that body movement preceded language. Language began as an unconscious vocal imitation of these movements -- like the way a child’s mouth will move when they use scissors, or my tongue sticks out when I try to play the guitar. This evolved into the popular idea that language may have derived from gestures.

    3. The bow-wow theory. Language began as imitations of natural sounds -- moo, choo-choo, crash, clang, buzz, bang, meow... This is more technically refered to as onomatopoeia or echoism.

    4. The pooh-pooh theory. Language began with interjections, instinctive emotive cries such as oh! for surprise and ouch! for pain.

    5. The ding-dong theory. Some people, including the famous linguist Max Muller, have pointed out that there is a rather mysterious correspondence between sounds and meanings. Small, sharp, high things tend to have words with high front vowels in many languages, while big, round, low things tend to have round back vowels! Compare itsy bitsy teeny weeny with moon, for example. This is often referred to as sound symbolism.

    6. The yo-he-ho theory. Language began as rhythmic chants, perhaps ultimately from the grunts of heavy work (heave-ho!). The linguist A. S. Diamond suggests that these were perhaps calls for assistance or cooperation accompanied by appropriate gestures. This may relate yo-he-ho to the ding-dong theory, as in such words as cut, break, crush, strike...

    7. The sing-song theory. Danish linguist Jesperson suggested that language comes out of play, laughter, cooing, courtship, emotional mutterings and the like. He even suggests that, contrary to other theories, perhaps some of our first words were actually long and musical, rather than the short grunts many assume we started with.

    8. The hey you! theory. A linguist by the name of Revesz suggested that we have always needed interpersonal contact, and that language began as sounds to signal both identity (here I am!) and belonging (I’m with you!). We may also cry out in fear, anger, or hurt (help me!). This is more commonly called the contact theory.

    9. The hocus pocus theory. My own contribution to these is the idea that language may have had some roots in a sort of magical or religious aspect of our ancestors' lives. Perhaps we began by calling out to game animals with magical sounds, which became their names.

    10. The eureka! theory. And finally, perhaps language was consciously invented. Perhaps some ancestor had the idea of assigning arbitrary sounds to mean certain things. Clearly, once the idea was had, it would catch on like wild-fire!

    Another issue is how often language came into being (or was invented). Perhaps it was invented once, by our earliest ancestors -- perhaps the first who had whatever genetic and physiological properties needed to make complex sounds and organize them into strings. This is called monogenesis. Or perhaps it was invented many times -- polygenesis -- by many people.

    We can try to reconstruct earlier forms of language, but we can only go so far before cycles of change obliterate any possibility of reconstruction. Many say we can only go back perhaps 10,000 years before the trail goes cold. So perhaps we will simply never know.

    Perhaps the biggest debate among linguists and others interested in the origins of language is whether we can account for language using only the basic mechanisms of learning, or if we need to postulate some special built-in language-readiness. The learning-only people (for example, B. F. Skinner) say that childhood conditioning, or maybe modeling, can account for the complexity of language. The language-acquisition-device (LAD) people (such as Chomsky and Pinker) say that the ease and speed with which children learn language requires something more.

    The debate is real only for those people who prefer to take one or the other of these extreme views. It seems very clear to most that neither is the answer. Is there some special neural mechanism for language? Not in the sense of a LAD.

    In most mammals, both hemispheres looked very much alike. Somewhere in humanity's early years, a few people possibly inherited a mutation that left one hemisphere with a limited capacity. Instead of neural connections going in every direction, they tended to be organized more linearly. The left hemisphere couldn't related to things in the usual full-blown multidimensional way. But -- surprise! -- that same diminished capacity proved to be very good are ordering things linearly. And that's exactly what language needs: The ability to convert fully dimensional events into linear sequences of sounds, and vice versa.

    © Copyright 2003, C. George Boeree"

    The sources for symbols (real or imagined) are many.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-30-2016 at 12:23 AM. Reason: add content

  2. #2
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    Jan 2015
    I would add that apes and porpoises had digitized coded speaking and still do. In fact Kanzai and Koko speak sign language in our alphabets and we have not learned their tongue. Does that mean we are less evolved? This was a way of introducing a subject people usually do not want to think about as they conduct their unethical lives based on racial class and human ascendance.

    Languages included divinatory systems like ogun or El Coco - still used in Voudou or Orisha.

    One dialect of Ogham included math and astrology - see Le Placard Baton dated around 30,000 years ago.

    Another dialect of Ogham or Ogam was harmonic as their minstrels and poet Bards (BRDs - no vowels) know.

    If allowed I can post a whole twenty plus thread link called Ogham and Aymara.

    In Peru you may have heard about the Quipas - it kept poems too. It is very similar to Ogham tracts using the fingers up or down and angled. The knuckles being like the knots in the quipas.

    DNA research aids our history in a major way today. We see the Ainu all over the Pacific and Americas - they are also involved with the DNN and are the most likely origin of the Sidhe.

    Many early symbols related to the stars or lights in the skies. It was a very long time before an accurate lunar calendar came to be - and the Le Placard Baton was not the first. So mankind today has to try to put itself into the cognitive processes of ancients who in some cases could see things moving across two hundred miles from a mountain top - like Eustace Mullins can today - but most of us cannot. These people knew some things we will never learn but some people are trying including those who take Ayahuasca like Hancock which I have dealt with is out of order and not in tune with what the shamans sense - maybe Eustace could do it - not Hancock I say. What follows is an open minded approach from the new breed I like to think is influenced by people like myself. That is not to suggest that Sherry is as open as I would like.

    "One of my most passionate academic hobbies is archaeoastronomy, which includes the study of how ancient peoples observed the sky. As I will describe in a series of posts on this topic, I pursue my hobby with the use of free data and free software tools like Google Earth and the pyephem astronomical ephemeris calculation library, written in the Python programming language.

    Wikipedia gives a good overview of archaeoastronomy:

    Archaeoastronomy uses a variety of methods to uncover evidence of past practices including archaeology, anthropology, astronomy, statistics and probability, and history. Because themnse methods are diverse and use data from such different sources, the problem of integrating them into a coherent argument has been a long-term issue for archaeoastronomers.[4] Archaeoastronomy fills complementary niches in landscape archaeology and Archaeocryptography and or cognitive archaeology. Material evidence and its connection to the sky can reveal how a wider landscape can be integrated into beliefs about the cycles of nature, such as Mayan astronomy and its relationship with agriculture.[5] Other examples which have brought together ideas of cognition and landscape include studies of the cosmic order embedded in the roads of settlements.[6][7]

    Archaeoastronomy can be applied to all cultures and all time periods. The meanings of the sky vary from culture to culture; nevertheless there are scientific methods which can be applied across cultures when examining ancient beliefs.[8] It is perhaps the need to balance the social and scientific aspects of archaeoastronomy which led Clive Ruggles to describe it as: “…[A] field with academic work of high quality at one end but uncontrolled speculation bordering on lunacy at the other.”[9]
    The last comment in that passage speaks truth; archaeoastronomy sometimes tends to get little respect in the hard sciences due to the unfortunate prevalence of woo woo “science” where astronomical alignments in man made structures or geographic features are claimed to be created by aliens or other unknown “advanced races” not related to the actual people living in the region at the time.

    Particularly in the case of structures created by native aboriginal peoples, I find offensive the assertion that the structures could not possibly have been made by those peoples.

    Perhaps partially because the prevalence of woo (and the negative cast it puts on the field as a respectable academic pursuit), few people seem to be active quantitative practitioners of the field anymore. The heyday of the field was in the 1970′s and 1980′s, with practitioners such as Professors Anthony Aveni and Gerald Hawkins producing many seminal publications. Remarkably few publications have been produced in the field in the last two decades, despite the many subsequent advances in computational tools that can aid in archaeoastronomical research. Some other prominent practitioners of archaeoastronomy and/or researchers of megalithic monuments are Clive Ruggles (still active), Aubrey Burl, Alexander Thom (proponent of the “megalithic yard“, which unfortunately has almost as much woo associated with it as archaeoastronomy), Norman Lockyer, and J McKim Malville (also still active).

    In addition to the woo woo, there is also the problem that some amateur (and even professional) archaeologists have claimed astronomical alignments to be definitively present at archaeological sites that have literally thousands of potential lines that could reasonably be drawn to connect features at the site; they pick one or two that happen to be aligned with some phenomenon like summer or winter solstice Sun rise, and claim proof that the site was used for sky-watching purposes. It doesn’t take much background in statistics to realize that in such a site the chances of getting an alignment with some astronomical phenomenon by mere random chance is quite high. Some previous assertions of astronomical alignments of the Nazca lines are an excellent example of “cherry picked data” studies that have since been debunked with more rigorous statistical analyses (for a good overview, see a paper by Gerald Hawkins on this topic, here, in which he discusses studies of possible astronomical alignments of the Nazca lines, sun/moon alignments at Stonehenge, etc).

    As an aside, I’ll note here that the Nazca lines are in general the object of many woo woo “theories”, including theories that they must have been built by aliens as landing strips for their aircraft (yes, really). The idea that a collection of lines like the one in this picture were intended as an astronomical observatory seems almost sane in comparison to some of the other theories floating around out there."

    This person linked by Sherry (above) includes my theory about the Nazca lines being useful in drawing up water from deep aquifers.

    This article of mine explains some very powerful symbols.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 06-15-2016 at 12:12 AM.

  3. #3
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    Jan 2015
    A powerful meditation on a name to be kept secret we have posted here from Daniel Matt and his book The Essential Kabbalah called "Unsheathing the Soul" suggests there is a real name for god. Wisely he actually does not go so far (as some do) to say this is the only name, and he leaves the name to you anyway, as I recall. That could be my personal approach and bias though. The point is, the name itself has great power in the mind and soul of many people. The Kelts would not name their child so no other entity could access the soul of the child - until that child was protected and capable. There are many traditions where an original name is temporary until manhood - like the native Americans. A magical name is who you really are according to Wiccans. The name must have solid energy and numerology plus your own belief encompassed in it. My magical name is Tuatha (the People). Does it make any difference if you do not have such a name - no, and I will not use the "what harm can it do rationalization" or what Christians say is what Pascal meant in his "Wager".

    If you are operating a decree or immediate request it is different. For me, I am not into this a great deal and always thought what was right for other people was uppermost. I have little respect for any desire of power and when I had such desires I learned they took me and my attention away from what is RIGHT.

    But that is me and I know I am weird.

    So, if you need to know from the words of someone who is practicing these arts - I will quote something they acknowledge to be true about naming the name - games.

    "The Two Aspects of Eros

    Greek philosophers saw the spirit of Dionysus penetrating the whole of nature and binding together the two aspects of Eros, the penetration and blending energy of matter with its counterpart and complement, spirit. Esoterically, Eros is the leading force within a seeker that takes him away from a level of duality to a level of unity and wholeness. Furthermore, Eros is the key to transforming psychic vibratory rates. He does that by placing a seeker on his axial center, the neutral and timeless zone within his conscious self. This level of being brings about the integration of ego with soul. Hence, Eros is the god or essence that gives us the possibility of letting go of the past and living in the present moment, embracing spontaneously everything within and without our reach.

    Eros allows us to see everything as part of our own nature. He also shows us how to transmute carnal and unconscious attractions and desires of all kinds, and how to re-direct and reintegrate their energies back into the center of pure love and wisdom. This inner process must be conscious, because the ego and psyche must harmonize and unite before being invited to enter into the higher realms, where the qualities and gifts of Eros are awakened. On that level of achievement and realization, the seeker receives more gifts from Eros who directs him towards his own invisible and sacred Center of Pure Being, not really a "place" at all, but more a level of being and attunement. This is a level of consciousness where the essence of pure love and beauty manifest themselves through ordinary consciousness and can be said to be a part of the undivided unique consciousness of the whole of creation.

    In Symposium, Plato expounded that Eros had two aspects, one physical the other intellectual, i.e., wisdom. He knew that they had to harmonize and blend so as to transform ordinary men into heroes. According to Empedocles, "Aphrodite is Eros himself," the immortal force that unites and harmoniously blends together all the elements in nature, the "bringer" and "giver" of life. He also said, "the path to knowledge can be achieved only through Eros himself. The energy represented by Eros brings about a balance between pleasure, delight and gnosis, and this harmonious and enthusiastic search for gnosis comes not so much from the answers one receives but more from the search itself."

    Hence the quest goes on forever, since pleasure and gnosis go hand-in-hand and cannot be separated. Eros questions everything because he loves wisdom and is, therefore, the living source at the center of Greek philosophy. So Eros teaches the Greeks how to become free and fearless in the face of the unknown. He invites them to follow the path of knowledge and apply the sacred principles of freedom and equality, qualities that belong to Eros’ mother, Aphrodite, whom Empedocles identifies with Eros for, without the freedom and courage to explore our inner nature with imagination and intuition, we remain unconscious prisoners of conventional ideas, routines and vicious circles. Hence, Eros is himself the "mixer of the seeds and sperms" in creation, the primal cause, the bringer of life in the womb of nature. Eros’s gift to the seeker, therefore, is the transmuting energy of pure love, which is synonymous with the Logos.

    The oldest mythology of Homer does not mention Eros. Apparently Eros was not born out of a popular tradition but he is the creation of an abstract philosophical conception.

    In Greek esoteric philosophy, the Eros of theogonia took part in the creation of life itself. Eros pulls the sexes together and rules over all living creatures through the need for procreation and, for that reason, we see Plato, Sophocles, Eurepides, etc., praise his irresistible influence along with his mother, Aphrodite, as they both give life and rebirth." Two Aspects of Eros

    The cave can be done in a similar fashion before you go to sleep as you are through thinking about what happened that day, or what you hope will happen soon. If you see a mirror go through it.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-24-2016 at 09:18 PM.

  4. #4
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    Jan 2015
    You have read or heard about Cosmic Consciousness in books including one supported by William James (Harvard's great scholar on religion and philosophy) which was written by an early psychiatrist who was friends with Walt Whitman. Most people have great difficulty imaging the many true potentials of humanity documented in that book and in the books of James who write Pragmatism and other things of great value to Carl Jung. It is highly likely that you heard characters like Popeye or Snagglepuss speak phrases like "I Yam what I yam." and missed the significance of your soul "within". What follows is akin to what Father Teilhard de Chardon called a "Template" or perfect thought which if enough (maybe as few as the collective learning styles of seven or eight developed by Howard Gardner - could change the World Mind or start that process.

    "However, JESUS THE CHRIST represents a perfected vehicle that has existed, and still continues to exist eternally, since it represents one of the perfected Expressions of Primordial Wisdom. That is why, to a Western approach, Jesus or Jeheshua represents a process of manifesting Primordial Wisdom to a Western approach. Since, the Perfect Model and Mold are themselves expressions of the Primordial Wisdom. Hence, Jesus or Jeheshua represent a channel and a vehicle in which a high level of initiation takes place. He represents one of the Perfect Mold in which the process of awakening and of enlightenment takes place. The Perfect Mold of a Cosmic Christ or of a Buddha exists everywhere…and remains the same, for everyone, since they are made of the same pure essence of Primordial Wisdom and therefore, all Perfect Molds and Models are ALIVE and ACTIVE expressions of the same unique source, which are inherent to Pure Being.

    The meaning of the Perfect Mold and Perfect Model should be understood intuitively by the genuine seeker because these two symbolic expressions should clarify the understanding that it is not the ego personality and the intellect as such that choose a Perfect Model and discovers its corresponding Perfect Mold. The Perfect Model within each one of us is hidden within consciousness. When consciousness "awakens" in a seeker, then the Presence of the Perfect Model appears. It is through the purification of the psyche and the unfoldment of the inner process that the expression of the Perfect Model becomes clearer and is revealed.

    However, we should also realize that the world of the psyche belongs to the world of duality, since the mirror of the psyche transfers and projects, images, ideals, intuitions, which are reflections of the Perfect Model. The Perfect Model unfolds the process of awakening and its vehicle, the Perfect Mold is the "ground" on which the awakening process takes place. It is the purified psyche - the mirror of the Soul in which ideal "images" of Heroes and Heroines can still be projected like in the time of childhood. However, for seekers of truth, these faints projected ideal models of heroes and heroines, of gods and goddesses are replaced by a direct impulse coming from the Presence of pure Being. To begin with, this new impulse appears like a divine and complementary counterpart and gradually reveals the Presence of the Perfect Model. Until such time that consciousness reveals that the psyche does not really was a perfect mirror reflecting purified impulses that disappear leaving a silent space within... a level of consciousness in which the world of duality is non-existent and in its place appears the Presence the uncreated and immortal Essence of Being, the "I AM" Presence and the sudden realization that :

    "I AM ... WHAT I AM""

    The pre-vowel script YHVH is a powerful archetype.

    In the 'black earth and madonna' phrase is a code for the ingredients of the Philosopher's Stone and the unifying needed in your spirit or soul. This unifying and centering in the yin and yang or Tao is a key to both the physical and spiritual Great Work. After reading the link you might want to read the thread Paraiba Stones. You should know Ianna is a name for a Phoenician myth as are many other gods of the Mediterranean. Please also refer to the thread Marija Gimbutas for more on a more ancient Mother Goddess religion of equality.

    "A Reflection on Black Virgins

    Intentionally hundreds of icons of Mary have black faces and hands. In France they are called "Vierge Noires" or Black Virgins. In other countries they are called Black Madonnas. Some call her "the other Mary". Jung said she is Isis whilst others consider her to be the iconic remains of prehistoric Mother Earth worship. She is linked with Cybele/Demeter, Diana/Artemis, Isis and Venus/Aphrodite. Cross-culturally she is associated with Kali, Inanna & Lilith. Historically she has ties to the Crusades and the Moorish occupation of Spain, to the Conquistadors, who brought her to the New World and to the Merovingians and Knight Templars. For modern psychologists she is said to express the archetype of the Dark Feminine. In other words, She represents our individual subconscious in which all the experiences, qualities and distortions of past incarnations are kept, engrained and hidden. They are until such time when the bells of “salvation” reverberate in one's Psyche and the time for transformation appears in one's life. The feminine Principle, like Marie Magdalene, manifests in consciousness and like the essence that she represents, follows the guidance of the Inner Voice... the real Master, or the Cosmic Christ within…"

  5. #5
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    Jan 2015
    The matter of how this knowledge comes to or through us is a never-ending
    source of amazement to me and I wonder when I hear or read the Director of the Human
    Genome Project saying we have a history book in our genes if it is the genes which
    encode to linkages in a similar helical layered universe of knowledge. Thus in some way
    the mystical concept of the Akashic Record may be ‘within’ plus ‘without’.


    We all can easily see the power of logos and symbols like the cross or Swastika. These
    symbols were built and designed to focus power and we will develop the understanding
    of the mandalas a little more shortly. I have presented information about how the soul is
    impacted by Kabalistic means in an excerpt called ‘Unsheathing the Soul’ from Daniel
    Matt’s work that may seem hard to believe for the uninitiated and when he says it allows
    the seeker to see and feel the god force it surely seems wrong to many hard skeptical
    people. Runes are derived from Ogham and there are some scholarly papers that state this
    fact. I believe Ogham was mathematical and derived or designed to build archetypes in
    the energy that surrounds us.

    "The oldest and most often used form of the runes is the collection of 24 Germanic
    rune-staves that is called the 'Elder Futhark'. This collection of signs defines an
    imaginative world inhabited from Paleolithic times until well into the 17th century. As
    late as 1700, people were burned for using them.

    The 24 signs are arranged in three families, or 'aett' (pluarl aettir'), of eight signs each.
    The sequence of signs in each 'aett' is significant, and each is ruled over by a particular
    spirit: 'Freya' and 'Frey', goddess and god of fertility, love and increase; 'Heimdall', the
    Watcher and keeper of the Rainbow Bridge to the Heavens; and 'Tyr', war-leader and
    spirit of the Just. Each rune is a symbolic storehouse and a magical talisman with a field
    of meanings that connects objects, creatures, feelings, experiences, spirits, and archetypal
    processes. They are seen as a description of the inner structure of reality. Their movement
    in a particular situation articulates the way 'Wyrd', fate, is weaving our lives.

    Because the runes did not go through the fixation of meaning associated with imperial
    culture {N.B.} and the development of a universal compass {Propaganda and religious
    oppression.}, their fields of meaning remain fluid and individual. Old texts and traditions,
    written much later than the signs themselves, give sets of associations, but the intuition
    still has free play. This is one of the reasons for their modern rediscovery. {Use of
    divinatory or free associative insight allows psychic talent to blossom.}

    For the runes are more than a way of sending secret messages. They exist in the
    middle of a group of 'pagan' practices that includes weaving spells, speaking with the
    dead, and travelling in the spirit. They were inscribed on objects to give them power and
    potency, used to curse enemies, and seen as doorways to identification with a pagan god.
    They would be used to examine the life-path of a newborn child or to determine the path
    a tribe would follow. The cultures that used the runes put a high value on women and the
    power of the goddess. Wise women and runemasters used these signs to understand what
    the gods wanted; to see and change the shape of coming events." (3)

    Mandalas and More:

    Stone-making and stone forming and stone growing or crystal-making were ancient
    neolithic technologies that enabled much of what we do today with metals. The rocks
    were like Macrochips and contained knowledge in lattices and energy wells as we see Dr.
    Robins explain. The use of mandalas and talismans to gather the forces of nature and the
    cosmos through four key entry points includes crosses and all kinds of ancient structures.
    Dr. Robins takes us through an introductory part of his book that includes talismans in a
    very conventional manner or scholarship:

    "...Islam is also in thrall to the power of stone, for at the centre of Mecca, the
    fountainhead of Islam, the devout pilgrims worship at the Black Stone, the Ka'aba.

    It is this power and our attempts to reach it that excite many authors of books on
    ancient mysteries, for we see stone as the skeleton of our past, and the mysteries of
    bygone ages are fossilized within it. In many cases these ancient riddles are still
    unknowable, only hinted at in obscure and often nonsensical legends, but in others these
    secrets can be pried loose, as we shall see later. It is these secrets that are our real
    concern, and this chapter serves only to sketch in the strength of the symbolism of stone.
    To do that we must tread a well-flattened path, for many authors have detailed legends
    and beliefs about stone exhaustively and repetitively. It is not my intention to follow
    them slavishly because our task is not merely the recounting of legends, beliefs and
    unfounded ideas of the power and symbolism of stone but to penetrate to the reality
    behind them. However, to do this we must first take 'some' steps along the path, pausing
    here and there to follow byways in this complex web of enchantment that surrounds


    To see how deeply these enchanted stones have woven themselves into the fabric of our
    past and present we need only consider the superstitions surrounding stones of all kinds.
    Enchanted stones are, in the main, considered benevolent. As such they are worn on
    amulets, bracelets and necklaces and kept as talismans and set before buildings to protect
    everything within. The current interest in 'crystal healing', where the anciently prescribed
    attributes of particular gemstones are invoked to protect and heal the sympathetic
    individual, is just an example of a very old belief being presented in a new and
    fashionable guise.

    The full extent of such stone-lore would fill several volumes, for it is not limited to
    time, race or religion, and many authors have discussed various aspects of stone
    enchantment or surveyed the entire field. Among the latter Myra Shackley, in her
    admirably concise book Rocks and Man, provides a brief but comprehensive
    archaeological and historical survey which we will draw upon in this chapter."

    I see value in comparing Linear A and Linear B to symbols over the whole world because I do not buy the Flat Earth theory promoted indirectly by academia - once mandated by religion.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-19-2016 at 09:23 AM.

  6. #6
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    Jan 2015
    In the following jpeg you will see a shaman's drum with pictographic markings including a building with a cross or steeple on top. In North America these representations of man and how the energy of the cosmos enters man are done in rock kiosk forms. There are near runic and half Ogham art glyphs including what could be a "p' or a letter starting with what is called the Fupark (AKA futhark). It could be a tract but does not have enough symbology due to repetition of the teepees or something which looks like teepees. Nat Geo and S-A have said people crossed the Ice to America as much as 30,000 years ago.

    This is taken from art done when Carl Linnaeus returned from Lapland in Northern Sweden a long time ago.

    Looking further into a Runic connection I noticed a Greek connection in Wikipedia. It is a script which shows up in the region of the Brutti and Pythagoras. It is said the scripts are Phoenician which I know is true but this seems pretty interesting to find where a Druid encampment was. Tara is the name of a city a little ways north and the script is connected with Etruscan as well. It is also Bardic or poetic, and that is so interesting to find under the Runic given the dating being older than the Runic dates they give. My research tells me they are wrong about the dates because they are focused on the Fupark which was not part of early Runes or Ogham.


    The inscription of the so-called Cup of Nestor, found in Ischia; Euboean alphabet, 8th century BC.
    The Euboean alphabet was used in the cities of Eretria and Chalkis and in related colonies in southern Italy, notably in Cumae and in Pithekoussai. It was through this variant that the Greek alphabet was transmitted to Italy, where it gave rise to the Old Italic alphabets, including Etruscan and ultimately the Latin alphabet. Some of the distinctive features of the Latin as compared to the standard Greek script are already present in the Euboean model.[34]

    The Euboean alphabet belonged to the "western" ("red") type. It had Χ = /ks/ and Ψ = /kʰ/. Like most early variants it also lacked Ω, and used Η for the consonant /h/ rather than for the vowel /ɛː/. It also kept the archaic letters digamma (Ϝ) = /w/ and qoppa (Ϙ) = /k/. San (Ϻ) = /s/ was not normally used in writing, but apparently still transmitted as part of the alphabet, because it occurs in abecedaria found in Italy and was later adopted by Etruscan.[34]

    Like Athens, Euboea had a form of "Λ" that resembled a Latin L and a form of "Σ" that resembled a Latin S. Other elements foreshadowing the Latin forms include "Γ" shaped like a pointed "C" (Greek Gamma pointed.svg), "Δ" shaped like a pointed "D" (Greek Delta 04.svg), and "Ρ" shaped like "R" (Greek Rho 03.svg).[34]

    The classicist Barry B. Powell has proposed that Euboea may have been where the Greek alphabet was first employed, c. 775-750 BC, and that it may have been invented specifically for the purpose of recording epic poetry.[35]"
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-28-2016 at 12:23 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    From a post by ISal in Hi ISal we have a great deal of embedded information on the third page of that long thread.

    Hello Mr. Baird,

    Reviewing a course, Human Origins by Don Johanson, a professor (found Lucy) of paleoanthropology. According to Johanson, there is a difference between language and communication.

    Communication is situational, abstract. Of interest is the idea, we as humans within our development of language/communication have both a biological and cultural evolution - Dobzhansky.

    Found an interesting statement of Dobzhansky from “Ethics and Values in Biological and Cultural Evolution”,

    Natural selection can favor egotism, hedonism, cowardice instead of bravery, cheating and exploitation, while group ethics in virtually all societies tend to counteract or forbid such ‘natural’ behavior, and to glorify their opposites: kindness, generosity, and even self-sacrifice for the good of others of one’s tribe or nation and finally of mankind.
    So, looking further Dobzhansky and find a little paper submitted to academia, Morality and evolution: what did the Synthetic Theory architects said about it? - Juan Manuel Rodríguez Caso and Rosaura Ruiz Gutiérrez

    One of Dobzhansky’s main intelectual influence in regard to human evolution was the work of French palaeontologist and Jesuit priest Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955)
    Of course the name Pierre Teilhard de Chardin jumps out from one of our previous discussions on another board and you cite him on many threads here at WM, so I pull up some of these posts which leads to Ptolemy's Harmonics All the posts in this thread are a fascinating, worthwhile read - even touches upon Platonic solids and from the title - you guessed it music!!!

    And going to backtrack here for a moment to state I did not understand what you meant by giving vs taking until you clarified in another post, Nichomachean Ethics afterwards connecting it to RIGHT THOUGHT - RIGHT ACTION.

    The basic idea is this - if you owe someone anything at the point of your death - you are not free to move into higher realms of harmonized soulful connections in the Harmonic Convergent Pyramid of all knowledge, energy and oneness (G-d, Nirvana etc.). Thus I do not 'take' as well as I 'give' and I appear (correctly) to be a martyr or even masochist.
    And in response to a inquiry asked another poster, to explain the Platonic solids with a hint - Ashmolean Museum. Leads to the Neolithic Carved Sandstone Balls. Excellent article for the layman (me) describing this by a Nobel Prize Winner, physic, Frank Wilczek, Beautiful Losers: Plato’s Geometry of Elements

    One must also admire the boldness of genius in seeing an apparent defect in the theory—five solids for four elements—as an opportunity for crowning creation, either with the Universe as a whole (Plato) or with space itself (Aristotle).
    So even though the Wilczek goes against this theory of Plato's insight- it is always important to look at both sides of the picture, per se and the comments addressing this are well worth the read, too. One can benefit also from reading, TIMAEUS, by Plato along with your thread mentioned above - Ptolemy's Harmonics. I seriously doubt I can bring anything new to this forum that has not been covered already, but still exciting to research a subject and find it reference here for further details.

    Lost track of where this quote originated, may have been one of your insertions here on WM, and think it is important to include

    Aristotle's question about the kinds of shapes that fill space, has proven to be crucial to the study of crystals where atoms are locked into repeating geometric patterns in 3-dimensional space. Metaphysically, the Platonic Solids show how all things come from one source and are intimately and permanently woven together.
    Now, I do not have the full answer in detail and of course I know you know already but think it all leads back to all your threads on the grid.
    BTW - Learned about this in a couple Geography classes (last year or year before - Physical Geo & Social Geo).
    Actually had to do a short one page paper on the Grid - nowadays Google Earth is an example.
    And your sharing of information leads to Critical Path - By R. Buckminster Fuller - link not to entire book, but enough to get started.

    Way too much here - would fill up pages with quotes of interest that confirm so much of what you already talk about here (and surely cover in your books connecting with your building blocks)!!! Thus no need to go further in an explanation. Just gonna say this goes way beyond the time-frame of Plato - IMHO he just passed on this info, like Bucky, you, and so many others.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Coins from Rome often showed spheres including the universe as a sphere. Clearly they knew the earth was as we also know Erasthothenes did. But the whole cosmogony of spheres is very important and though coins are often a medium for personal aggrandizement by politicians I think it is useful to know what their religions were selling too.

    "The title for this article is taken from a book by Otto J. Brendel, a great art historian, who showed that archeological monuments could support literary evidence to yield new perspectives and insight to the meaning of ancient symbols. His essay on the meaning of the sphere that appears on ancient coinage and artwork stands as one of the great pieces of classical scholarship. Using this work along with other sources, I hope to explain further some of the questions raised in Michael Marotta’s recent article (The Celator Feb. 1998 p. 18.) about this fascinating subject, namely the symbolism of the sphere. First of all, the sphere or orb that adorns so many Roman coins has roots in religion and philosophy. The Greeks believed that the universe was divine. Moreover, it was spherical as evident from the apparent shape of the starry sky. The Stoics, in particular, believed that the cosmos controlled all events by a divine fire that was “reason” (logos). Each person’s soul was a small flame from the cosmic fire that revealed itself as a divine force, namely Fate. And the Sun and stars manifested that fire. Thus, the orb representing the living, divine universe was held sacred which justifies its representation on coins. The evidence that the orb depicted on so many coins was the cosmos and not the Earth is revealed first of all by stars and astronomical markings.

    Close inspection of the orbs sometimes shows not a smooth ball, but bands or hatch marks. On small orbs there appears a letter “X,” but on larger orbs, it is recognized as crossed bands that represent the intersection of the all important zodiac and the celestial equator. The system of circles that the Greeks marked on the celestial sphere is described in the Phaenomena of Aratus, Pliny’s Natural History, and Manilius’ Astronomica. The “X” is called the equinoctial cross which represents the spring and autumnal equinoxes (where the Sun crosses the celestial equator). It signified the belief in cosmic cycles of birth, death, and rebirth. (The Timaeus of Plato referred to this symbol as a celestial Greek letter “chi.”) The sestertius of Antoninus Pius in Marotta’s article is a poor specimen. But I happen to have a better example (fig. 1) that shows that the globe cannot be the Earth. The cornucopia in Italia’s hand represents the abundance of the country. Her scepter symbolizes the authority of Italia, probably due to her greatest city, Rome. But the globe has stars and the equinoctial cross. Thus, Italia presiding on the cosmic orb signifies the greatness and immensity of her power.

    We will return to the power of the orb later, but for now we will focus on the orb’s circles. When a Greek astronomer explained the parts of a celestial globe to his pupils, he used a “radix” or staff to point to the equator, ecliptic (zodiac), constellations, etc. Urania, the muse of astronomy, is often depicted as pointing the radix to a celestial globe on a tripod, which signifies her power over the workings of the cosmos. I have seen some of the Republican denarii of Pomponius Musa (Craw. 410/ 8) showing Urania pointing her radix to a globe that has a tiny equinoctial cross. This also reveals the incredible skill and attention for detail by a master celator. Of course, most orbs do not show the equinoctial cross or even stars. Most are smooth, but a few others show a grid that looks like the circles of latitude and longitude of earth globes. Those orbs that look remarkably like a modern geographic globe are found most commonly on denarii struck by Juba II (SNG Cop. 587) and by Vespasian (RIC 117). On those coins Capricorn, the source of Augustus Caesar’s imperial destiny, holds the grid-marked orb. But, the sky, too, had a grid system laid out by Greek astronomers which was used to locate stars and planets on the celestial sphere. We know that the orbs, smooth or with grids, are celestial spheres because of how they are employed in the iconography. The orb is commonly portrayed as being offered by Sol or Jupiter to the emperor. {Thus we see man is above the Gods he created.}(Capricorn also offers it to the person born under its control.) Often, the emperor already possess the orb, and holds it outright for everyone to see. A fine example of this is shown in Marotta’s article.

    The significance of these scenes lies in the meaning of the “cosmocrator” - the world holder - or better interpreted as the world ruler. And here “world” is the ancient meaning, namely cosmos, not the modern meaning for Earth. The cosmocrator has deep religious and political meanings. Sol, Mithras, and Jupiter were world rulers because they controlled the workings of the universe and bestowed kingships. Their power was signified by the celestial orb. Thus, an emperor who received the orb from them was blessed as a cosmocrator which gave him the religious and political power to rule everything. Receiving the orb was another metaphor for power possessed by the emperor- a common theme on Roman coinage. Nevertheless, as Marotta mused, there is excellent evidence that Greek and Roman scholars knew that the Earth was round, which raises the question whether a round Earth was depicted on coins. However, there was no universal agreement that the Earth was unquestionably round. That is, Ptolemy, Pliny, Seneca, and many others claimed that the Earth is “sensibly” round, but they tell us that the majority of common folk did not accept what navigators and scholars deduced from observation and studies. So, we should not jump to the conclusion that the round Earth was widely accepted as it is nowadays. In any case, could a spherical Earth be depicted on a coin by the intelligentsia? From the above arguments, we are left with not many examples, if any. Virtually all the orbs on Roman coins are the celestial sphere the sacred source of power of the cosmocrator.

    But in my opinion there is one coin that depicts the round Earth. (There may be others, but I prefer this example.) I maintain that the inscriptions using the phrase orbis terrarum (circle of lands) allude to a round Earth. And there is one particular coin that supports this idea. The coin is RIC 594, a sestertius of Hadrian. The reverse is “RESTITVTORI ORBIS TERRARVM S C. Hadrian standing left, holding roll in left hand, extending right hand to raise towered woman, kneeling left, holding globe.” The coin commemorates Hadrian’s cancellation of debts which made him “restorer of the earth” because this act greatly benefited the empire’s economy. The coin, in my opinion, is likely an example of a round Earth because a celestial orb would not be called orbis terrarum. Also, I do not see an equinoctial cross or stars on this large globe that would easily show such celestial devices. Thus, I believe that this is a good candidate for the depiction of a round Earth."

    It is not that we needed proof that ancients knew the Earth was not Flat as the people in Rome later foisted upon the people they kept telling lies of every kind to. Clearly the Hobbit on Flores Island knew this a million years ago as it's people began travelling the ocean, or whoever brought them there. I just want everyone to be certain about the fact that religions will not conscience a truth of any sort to go unpunished (see Galileo) if that truth stands in the way of secrets which make them money, and the secret trade to the Americas made them a whole lot of money. Sometimes they paid off authors for being helpful in making their lies become accepted by the sheople as was the case with a mariner named Cosmas Indicopleustas and the cretin whose writings follow.

    Ussher's work and maps therefrom were still used in schools as my nephews were being educated or brainwashed. It does not matter if they were used to show how ignorant people were under the tutelage of repressive ideology, they were not told it never was what knowledgeable people thought and how these lies upon which our nations are founded are born.

    On the issue of language we have many words and even a calendar to thank Julius Caesar for succeeding in getting his puss or visage in front of his sheep. Our Calendar is the Julian calendar and the month of July bears his name. You can think of other words like the days of the week which carry gods into the heavenly realms of immortal memes to posterity which equals the great Caesars (Czars, Kaisers et al.). But in the beginning there were mere scripts and even before that glyphs which served to place one clan or enterprise in such lofty positions. These symbols including Logos (That name or word of course is a powerful meme - see thread.) like the Nike swoosh or the Mormon Beehive can impact you in ways you do not grasp as a youth.

    In the link which follows you will find support for my history stretching from the Ainu in Peru to Egypt and Malta. You will also learn a little of codes included on the top of the Pyramid on the back on the US greenback - the Eye of Horus or Third Eye which is the pineal gland on the caduceus and which allowed psychic power enhancements in all secret societies including Skull and Bones as we have demonstrated in many ways, many eras and with many peoples.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-05-2016 at 05:30 AM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    You might find my assertion that our nations are founded on such memes or ancient brainwashing techniques but it goes much deeper than that. It affects your psyche and soul as well as the laws you operate under or with. Most of what knowledge you gain occurs sub rosa or under the logical mind of acquisition techniques therein. I recall a Harvard study saying only a third of our personal knowledge come via the art of what logic and linear thinking brings. You might find some of what follows pretty extreme, or you might say it is biased, but I do not see much more than the obvious.

    "The foundational platform of a society is always attached to the laws and regulations that are instituted (at least theoretically) for the benefit and protection between its members. The reasons for establishing laws arose as societies developed into more complex relational systems regulating the actions of its members and enforced by the imposition of penalties. From the earliest eras of human civilization it was seen that laws were necessary structures of protection from abuse between members of the group. Not only that, certain conclusions were drawn. The observable world seemed to operate fairly predictably, and since science had not been developed, superstition and imagination were the platforms that formulated the conceptual framework to explain the natural cycles of the stars, seasons and permanence of the world. In looking at two of the oldest and most influential societies we can see what they considered the most important aspects and concerns when it came to building a system of laws for its citizens. We will find that certain conclusions led to specific outcomes, and since we are still living with the consequences of those ancient conclusions and find them inadequate and destructive, we need to re-imagine a new foundation for a new set of laws based not upon superstition and deceptive, imaginary concepts, but rather a moral universalism that enriches, protects and strengthens the bonds of relationships between its members. {Which was once in existence as the Brotherhood of Man and symbolized as the Great pyramid of Iesa. Darryl and all people almost have no idea who built that Pyramid and the thousands of other ones or megaliths around the world.}

    The Vedic and Egyptian Concepts of Law and Order

    We begin with a survey of the great civilizations that arose in the Indus and the Nile river valleys. It is ironic, but worthy to note, that both of these civilizations that produced and contributed so much of the cultural framework of all the civilizations that followed are hot, steaming piles of rubbish today, at least in terms of the current state of their societal status today. Both societies are now embroiled in controversies centering around long-standing divisive religious arguments that have never been resolved. India suffers from a punitive and divisive social caste system and Egypt is in the throes of a civil war between the military and various religious factions. There exists a titanic social and economic inequality between the members of both societies. This is the consequence of a social inability to deal with the issues of social balance and harmony, and reveals the dysfunctional systematic objectives that has riven the social contracts and made them untenable.

    When one turns to the Vedic structures of society, we discover that there was a direct linkage between the observable patterns and rhythms of the natural world and the emerging social relations that were moderated by the priestly factions. It was under the great Sun – Eye of the sky god Varuna that the cosmic Law of the universe was said to have been established. This law was eternal and kept chaos and discord at bay. It was the same law, according to the priests, that regulated the moral relationships between the people. The priests insisted that to keep the balance of the universe in place rituals were necessary. Over time these rituals become more complex and intricate. More valuable sacrifices were instituted. Literature emerged to give guidance and rules about the proper institutions of the rituals. This gave the priests much authority and advantage over the people they allegedly served, and it also was a source of controversies when these rituals failed to produce the desired results, which over time became more clear to the people. Over many centuries the rituals began to lose their mysterious hold on the people and the power of the priests diminished, but not before they had managed to protect their social status and inoculate themselves from the lower rungs of society. Today the consequences are on the Indian subcontinent is extremely unpleasant. Recently elected Prime Minister Narendra Modi has compared the current economic state of Indian to a “dying patient.” [1] Child brides, violence against women, institutionalized poverty, widespread hunger, lack of education and opportunity; all these flow from the consequences of these fabled and utterly failed cultural constructs.

    On the African continent, Egypt also enjoys a historic status as being one of the most influential and ancient civilizations in the world (over 10,000 years in the making). Science, technology and religion made its greatest advancements in this North African country that the world has ever seen. And yet, it is today a seething cauldron of misrule, social division and punitive militarianism that has gained ascendency in governance. But in the beginning, the members of the civilization of ancient Egypt was concerned with maintaining order, balance and an abiding sense of justice. And this was personified by the ancient feminine deity Ma’at.

    Ma'at icon Depicted in the ancient glyphs as a winged woman shown with an ostrich feather and a set of scales,

    Ma’at represented balance, law, order, justice and judgment. It was believed at death, one had to pass the judgment in the Hall of Ma’at. With her ostrich feather she measured the human heart on her scale. If the heart leaned to the side of good, the soul was allowed to pass into the afterlife. If it was deemed bad, the soul was forced into eternal damnation. Thus were formed the foundations of law and order within ancient Egypt, not to mention ethics and justice. As with the example of the ancient Vedic priesthood, the order of priests in Egypt asserted that they alone were the representatives of the goddess Ma’at and were bound to keep her traditions and precepts alive for the people. Thus an intricate legal system developed along with a deep sense of morality and justice.

    It was the Pharaoh, or the ruler of the ancient kingdom that was responsible for maintaining balance, law and order – that is, maintaining the “Ma’at” of the country. As the “God” living on Earth, the Pharaoh was not only the political leader of the nation, he or she was also the religious leader as well. As gods, they owned the lands, created the laws and engaged in maintaining the country or conducting wars against rival nations. Obviously an aristocratic elite was necessary to keep that power in the hands of a few. Predictably, the decline of the power of the Pharaohs coincided with the many military defeats at the hands of the Persians, Greeks and the Romans. And while the country always garnered great respect for its historical ancient wisdom, technology and culture, it is today a crumbling social vortex of uncertainty, violence, death and injustice.

    There are consequences to establishing societies based on social inequality. They all turn into failed, authoritarian states with elites desperately clinging to power through any means necessary. This leads to questions about the possibility of laws ever being able to fulfill its role in ensuring that justice, equality or personal liberty is possible for everyone. As it stands now, laws more and more are designed and used to protect the positions and advantages of those who sit in the seats of power. A call for the re-imaging and recalibration of the meaning of law and order should be placed under discussion and examined. In the next few posts we will look at some of these points that deserve attention.



    The degree of manipulation you know about is directly related to the amount of what you think about. Thinking is not a skill you learn in school and presumably your parents were too busy to teach you even if they knew what was going on - which would make them very unusual. In fact what you think about - the thinking process itself is by-passed and less than the importance given to it in our educational environment, I say by design.

    There is no black and white boogeyman but both sides of every issue are managed and considered with resultant contingencies generated when necessary. The politicians are not all that capable of deciding what is needed and they listen to the bureaucrats who are supported and trained by think tanks or outgrowths of the Rhodes Round Tables and banker's monies.

    That does not mean it is wrong and I agree with Professor Quigley and other whistleblowers who say the institutions they expose do a lot of necessary things. Unfortunately the rage of stupidity by so-called 'truthers' and Tea party cretins is all 'in vogue' and being 'liked' through eubonics and social media. Shrub and Trump are the result.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-30-2016 at 09:38 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    They say there are eight scripts which have not been deciphered and yet there are tens of thousands of dead languages. They do not include geoglyphs or symbols which communicate to forces as script from what I see although the Rongorongo/Pre-Harappan and Olmec look to be advanced forms of that. They do not include accurate Neolithic calendars such as Marshack proved long before any of what they include. They would have a hard time explaining how clicking noises by animals cause thoughts to exchange - did and still do. But there are many funny things in this.

    " Sitovo script

    Wikimedia Commons

    In 1928 a group of woodcutters found some markings carved into a Bulgarian cliffside. They thought the marks indicated hidden treasure, but none was found. Word got around and soon some archaeologists had a look. Later, the head of the expedition was executed for being a secret agent for the Soviets in Bulgaria. One piece of evidence used against him was a strange coded message he had sent to Kiev—actually a copy of the cliffside inscription he had sent to colleagues for scholarly input. It is not clear what language the inscription represents. Thracian, Celtic, Sarmato-Alanian, and Slavic are some of the possibilities scholars have argued for. Another suggestion is that it's simply a natural rock formation."

    The origin of qabala (verbal tradition) began before the ability to speak and might be connected to the soul or wisdom acquisition of the most early of knowledge systems even before Tantric and sutra sex and dancing (dream dancing or Dirvish-like ecstasy). The ability to attune with wisdom in nature probably precedes humanity. It is cosmic consciousness and has a corollary or opposite which is also part of the truth we find in Abraxas and the Oroborous. This cosmic fire and ice has origins long before Aristotle or his inspired progenitor Pythagoras the Druid. You can see it in the Qabala's Tree of Life which I did for my book Diverse Druids.

    In this link you will find 9,000 year old druidic knowledge in Poland.

    Transparency in Government, Media and Religion

    The most important part of any course where reading is involved or people are sharing their thoughts has to start with stipulating the weaknesses of learned knowledge and the need for questioning one's beliefs. Here is a central part of the problem historians or truth seekers face. This one example covers almost all of history.

    Do you believe what you read in the paper today? Which side of the event do you believe? Is either one correct? When you look back on the event a month later after reading more accounts does your opinion of the first accounts change?

    The following link mentions Hecateus was the first to use the word 'keltoi' in 500 BCE. I doubt that for many reasons including the word Celt is a roman epithet to diminish the 'kelts' and earlier cultures they stole and fought from and with. When was the first time 'Celt' was used to describe a people rather than the hammered tool made from early alloying caused in fires like those set to cause rock to break and release gold or gems? That is called Spalling and it was probably used before Dolni Vestonici double kiln technology and ceramic making in 27,000 BCE. Hammered tool - in case you do not know, is synonymous with a drunken lout. That is the kind of history that survived Empire and was still being written by Hume in the era of Gibbon who wrote the definitive book on Rome. That is what books used in schools still pass along as fact.

    Though the following says we have many ancient historians and geographers and books they wrote - they do not. The works of Poseidonius are quoted by others and I think his originals were too instructive about the origins of actual inventions and culture so they had to be destroyed. His work is quoted by Herodotus who was ridiculed for writing fictions (now proven by archaeology - Amazons and Sybaris are examples). Then there is the usual matter of journalists writing things to appease or please their masters or employers. The Senchus Mor told the history of the Kelts for 25,000 years and thus it was a primary target for elimination and doctoring by the likes of St. Patrick who we have proof did just that. Strabo wrote that the Kelts of Iberia had a 7500 year written history. Roma and Greece were not even glints in the eyes of the Phoenician Keltoi in the era before the second millennia BCE began. The Phoenicians however were working on writing alphabets and are the acknowledged originators of all Mediterranean alphabets. I say it is more than that as you would know if you read my numerous points, books and articles on the subject quoting all manner of experts including Flinders-Petrie in his Formation of the Alphabet.

    "The Celts of the distant north have not yet taken to writing, but we have many accounts of people who have been to their lands or who have talked to people who have. The Carthaginian Himilcar was one of the first people to leave an account of the area. Hecataeus of Miletus (c 500B.C.), an early geographer and writer, was the first to use the term "Keltoi". His works are quoted by the later Herodotus (c. 450 B.C.). Pytheas of Massalia (4th century B.C.) spoke of an island called Brettanike. He travelled there and possibly beyond around 310 - 306 B.C. Theopompus' 4th century B.C. account of Philip II of Macedon includes his contacts with the Keltoi. Hieronymus of Cardia and Phylarchus, both of the 3rd century B.C., wrote about the customs of the Keltoi. Marinus wrote about the Keltoi in the 1st century B.C. Poseidonius' first-hand account of Gaul in the 1st century B.C. is much quoted by Diodorus Siculus (1st century B.C.), and Strabo (25 A.D.). There is also a copy of a Greek inscription in Upper Egypt (185 B.C.) that tells how some mercenaries with Greek names caught a fox or jackal. From the inscription it is obvious that the mercenaries were, in fact, Keltoi."
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-16-2016 at 05:24 PM.

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