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Thread: The Seductive Voice, Trance and more

  1. #1
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    The Seductive Voice, Trance and more

    In any profession where speaking is a needed tool would people like to be gifted or learned in it's use? Women and men have ways to talk when they want something and that manner can be learned for other purposes along with greater intensity. You can also accentuate the voice with body language, of course, But in the case of Hitler behind a podium and being of no particular appearance which I could call naturally charismatic as some experts try to suggest, I think we can safely look in other directions for an answer.

    If there has been a greater orator than Hitler I cannot think who that would be. I understand many preachers who are lawyers might be regarded as such but they tend to be following a book and re-gurgitating it. Yes, Hitler no doubt spoke the same speeches or similar rants but I say no simple speech coach taught him what made him so brilliant. In fact I say he would go into trance and from time to time access some channel of information - from somewhere. He did not talk in tongue, and he was lucid though at a high level of energy. I can tell you that I have witnessed true channelling and I think this is what he was doing. You of course, can come up with some other explanation.

    Here is what Cicero says in De Oratore, about orators and the difficulties of finding good one.

    "Who, for instance, in seeking to measure the understanding possessed by illustrious men, whether by the usefulness or the grandeur of their achievements, would not place the general above the orator? Yet who could doubt that, from this country alone, we could cite almost innumerable examples of leaders in war of the greatest distinction, but of men exceling in oratory a mere handful ? Nay further, among the men who by their counsel and wisdom could control and direct the helm of state, many have stood out in our own day, and still more in the history of our fathers and even of our remoter ancestors, and yet through lengthy ages no good orator is to be found."

    Cicero also met another gifted orator who he said had the power to enchant. He did not like this person, so it was not a matter of her feminine wiles. This person named Cleopatra may even be the alchemist of that name as are many Ptolemies the alchemists or students thereof. I can tell you it is an art in occult circles which I have studied - altering voice and intensity thereof, but how much was natural or learned I cannot say. Rasputin spoke a tongue or variation few understood, Gurdjieff used a breathing technique and projected energy. The two of them knew each other and possibly Gurdjieff shared a technique or two with Hitler or his handlers. That is my best guess as to why he was so outstanding.

    Less than a year ago this article tried to address why Hitler excelled as an orator. It is from a business journal, not one of my alchemy or occult sources. If the experts know so little about how to do what he did, shouldn't some of them be interested in learning? More importantly why were his underlings not allowed to mount a defense based on what "bewitching" went on? I can assure you some people knew the technique and did not overuse it as he did.

    "
    I know that men are won over less by the written than by the spoken word, that every great movement on this earth owes its growth to great orators and not to great writers."
    —Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf," 1925

    One of the world's most influential orators created the largest German political party, conquered a dozen nations, and slaughtered as many as 21 million people during his brutal 12-year Third Reich.

    In more than 5,000 persuasive speeches, Nazi leader Adolf Hitler bewitched his audiences and promised them that his empire would reign for a thousand years.

    Professor Bruce Loebs, who has taught a class called the Rhetoric of Hitler and Churchill for the past 46 years at Idaho State University, credits the Führer's oratory success to his charisma.

    "He learned how to become a charismatic speaker, and people, for whatever reason, became enamored with him," Loebs told Business Insider.

    "People were most willing to follow him, because he seemed to have the right answers in a time of enormous economic upheaval."

    Plagued with enormous World War I-related reparations in addition to an increasingly depressed global economy, Germany's economic environment supported Hitler's rise in the 1930s.

    Hitler took advantage of the brewing discontent and found himself at the forefront of an opportunistic political ideology, the National Socialist German Workers' party."

    http://www.businessinsider.com/why-h...-orator-2015-5

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    One of the places I learned about projecting energy and tapping in or centering (other than yoga) was reading books by Theosophy people and talking with them. I did not think any of them were specially gifted and confidence was their key tool. I can say the same for almost every sales training course including the Carnegie courses. I also learned it in drill instruction of a military sort. But that is more just a question of a loud voice. Annie Besant was apparently a great orator and she certainly was an adept occultist associated with the Theosophists and others including Masons and the HOGD. Here is a book of theirs to read. https://www.theosophical.org/files/r...sophyintro.pdf

    However, it is an offshoot of them which I think Hitler was more like - Rudolf Steiner. And maybe he even learned about VRIL power from people in Vienna at the groups set up by St. Germain. I suspect all he learned also required his father (Who also went to Vienna in his youth for a long time.) starting him off with special training. I have some ideas about this which I choose not to share. But the part of Theosophy which I think I learned the most from in this regard is what follows (From the above link). You will see many Eastern philosophical terms which is a result of the place Blavatsky and her ilk learned what they credit to channelling. Channelling is not something one easily controls or does despite what you read in books like Seth Speaks. And I am not expert in it, but through associated kinds of arts like Bibliomancy, face reading, palmistry etc., I think I can say what I am saying with a degree of integrity most of these people do not have.

    " And just as all seven wavelengths are inherent in every beam of light, so also all seven primordial energies are inherent in whatever energy underlies matter and consciousness.

    Six of the Rays form three contrasting pairs, with a seventh that mediates between them. They correspond with the seven principles of a human being and of the universe. We can briefly and only inadequately characterize them as follows:

    Ray 1: The energy of acting spontaneously, voluntarily, and freely, directed from within. It corresponds with the sense of Self, called Atma in Sanskrit.

    Ray 7: The energy of acting formally, with discipline and habit, following a pattern. It corresponds with the etheric double, the model or pattern for the body and the personality.

    Ray 2: The energy of relating to one another on a level, as nodes in a network, recognizing the underlying unity and equality of all beings. It corresponds with the buddhi, the insight or awareness of things as they are.

    Ray 6: The energy of relating to one another as units in a hierarchy, in which each member has the duty of following some and leading others in a relationship of obligation and responsibility. It corresponds with our emotional self, the desire of devotion and caring.

    Ray 3: The energy of discovering how to use knowledge to improve our world and ourselves and of discovering the purpose of living. It corresponds with the causal principle in us, the “higher mind.”

    Ray 5: The energy of discovering the world around us, of understanding how things work and thereby learning to control our environment. It corresponds with the “lower mind,” the desire mind or kama-manas.

    Ray 4: The energy of balancing and harmonizing apparent opposites, of synthesizing a thesis with its antithesis, of creating beautiful order (cosmos) out of conflicting disorder (chaos). It corresponds with the vital energy in us, that is, life as our inner mediating power.
    Every person and every thing has all seven of these energies in at least potential form, but various of the energies are dominant over the others in particular individuals, persons, and objects. The end of evolution, however, is to have all seven of the energies fully developed and mutually integrated.

    “What is the purpose of life?” The answer to that question is that life’s purpose is the development of countless numbers of spiritually self-conscious and fully developed individuals who did not exist as conscious souls at the beginning of the universe and who recognize both their own individuality and their fundamental unity. This answer is expressed in the saying: “God sleeps in the mineral, dreams in the vegetable, awakens in the animal, becomes self-conscious in humanity, and universally conscious in the Christ or Higher Self of all beings.” The purpose of life is to discover who we are, to know ourselves, and to know ourselves as integrated expressions of the oneness."


    The four manias of Plato have trance possession in them, and that is more kin to what Hitler did and which can be done most regularly. People can do this to or with you all the time. Plato himself is said to have not had the gift of telestics and it was taught in places like Eleusis. Bulwer-Lytton was a part of the Theosophical continuum and a founder of the Thule Society which chose Hitler to be the anointed one - for their use as a Messiah.
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-31-2016 at 12:22 AM.

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    Though I call Bulwer-Lytton names like blowhard, I learned from him and it was not easy to make money writing factual occult works in his era or even now, though there are many occult venues including the movies which are profitable. The characterization of he and Blavatsky is biased but they did engage in fraud. However, their progeny or legacy is far more immense than he says!

    The material presented here is not in depth and anyone can learn and grow through it with an open yet cautious approach. Literal interpretation is often unwarranted, there are many things I do not agree with including his use of Cabbalah when he should use Kabbalah for the era he speaks about. Cabala came much later when the persecution of the Jews had reached horrific proportions in the era after many of them died in fires or at the stake during the Cathar time. But you can take everything as somewhat truthful (like any source - you need to verify). Here is a little of some use in a thread on seductive voice I am doing.

    "Madame Blavatsky's first book, Isis Unveiled (1877), was less an outline of her new religion than a rambling tirade against the rationalist and materialistic culture of modern Western civilization. Her use of traditional esoteric sources to discredit present-day beliefs showed clearly how much she hankered after ancient religious truths in defiance of contemporary agnosticism and modern science. In this enterprise she drew upon a range of secondary sources treating of pagan mythology and mystery religions, Gnosticism, the Hermetica, and the arcane lore of the Renaissance scholars, the Rosicrucians and other secret fraternities. W. E. Coleman has shown that her work comprises a sustained and frequent plagiarism of about one hundred contemporary texts, chiefly relating to ancient and exotic religions, demonology, Freemasonry and the case for spiritualism. Behind these diverse traditions, Madame Blavatsky discerned the unique source of their inspiration: the occult lore of ancient Egypt. Her fascination with Egypt as the fount of all wisdom arose from her enthusiastic reading of the English author Sir Edward Bulwer-Lytton. His novel The Last Days of Pompeii (1834) had been conceived of as a narrative of the impact of the Isis cult in Rome during the first century AD. His later works, Zanoni (1842), A Strange Story (1862), and The Coming Race (1871), also dwelt on esoteric initiation and secret fraternities dedicated to occult knowledge in a way which exercised an extraordinary fascination on the romantic mind of the nineteenth century. It is ironical that early theosophy should have been principally inspired by English occult fiction, a fact made abundantly clear by Liljegren's comparative textual studies."

    In another section of the following link we see something which I think sheds light on past life recall and channelling.

    "Hypnotic Regression

    On the topic of between-lives regression, Michael Newton’s books are recommended: Journey of Souls, Destiny of Souls, and Life between Lives Hypnotherapy for Spiritual Regression. Another book that summarizes the subject is Journey of the Soul by Brenda Davies. By the way, in Life between Lives Newton has some interesting observations on the subject of Atlantis. All methods of accessing nonphysical worlds are subject to inaccuracy and the creative desires and fears of the individual. Hypnotic regression has the added difficulty that the subject is highly receptive to suggestion {And projected religious indoctrination etc.- See Tibetan Book of the Dead thread.}. Newton’s comments follow:

    Checking Conscious Interference

    When I discussed taking the client down into their childhood earlier in the session, I stated that you must check to see if the subject actually feels and thinks they are the young person they once were, rather than consciously straining to remember earlier times and places. At that stage the issue is one of trance depth. However, when you reach a past life, another problem of recall may become evident to you. This has to do with those few clients who produce faulty memories due to outright conscious interference. This matter of tainted reports needs to be cleared up before you proceed into spiritual regression.

    After regressing your subject into a past life, you must be watchful in checking to see if the client is recalling this life solely from historical details stored during their current lifetime. They may be using their imagination because of a conscious attraction to certain well-known events and familiar myths. Here bias enters the picture. I call this phenomenon the Atlantis Attraction because so many people are attracted to this story. You could first encounter this situation at intake when the client states, "I know we are going to find that I once lived in Atlantis." Their conviction centers around a desire to have once been part of a legendary early civilization on Earth.

    There is nothing wrong with a client having conscious prior knowledge about world history because this may help in identifying scenes of the past. However, you should be aware that some aspects of the past, even those that are mythological, could be so attractive to the client that it drives memory and distorts recall. The use of client ideomotor signals to disrupt speech and thus disengage conscious thought interference is productive. I will illustrate an Atlan Attraction case as an example:



    Facilitator: Where are you now?



    Subject: I'm in Atlantis.



    Facilitator: All right – let’s stop for a moment. I want you to take your time here and think carefully about what you have just told me. We won't speak to each other again until you have reviewed all your memories to verify that you are in Atlantis. After you have finished your examination of just where you are, I want you to notify me by raising the fingers of your right hand. I will not speak again until I see your fingers move.



    Subject: (after a long pause and raising fingers) Oh ... I guess I was wrong about Atlantis, but I seem to be a native on a beautiful island in the middle of an ocean.



    I will have more to say about Atlantis under the section Reviewing Past Life Incarnations, particularly with regard to hybrid souls.

    Another term I use for faulty reporting is the Famous Person Syndrome. Clients in this category want to be famous people. Most past life practitioners have had a number of clients who stated they were famous people before further examination revealed this was not true. In one of my three Marilyn Monroe cases, my client subsequently found she was a housekeeper for the actress. This client's preconceptions were unraveled when I asked her to go back to a scene where other people were around Marilyn Monroe and I told her to identify each person, with my client as part of the scene."


    http://www.foundationwebsite.org/OnBulwerLytton.htm
    Last edited by R_Baird; 03-31-2016 at 01:02 AM.

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    One of the most important aspects of what Hitler must have had encouragement or training in (like Tesla not far away) is early life dream and astral travel initiation. In Tesla's case his father was from a family of 'speakers' and priests who knew the techniques. It is very hard to unlearn what is beaten out of a person through social 'norming' and 'forming' (psychological modalities). From what little we know about both of their early lives - there definitely was a 'storming' stage in their relationship with their father. This stage almost always causes a 'trip' within.

    Intellect and intelligence are seen in psychology as factual cognition or emotional feelings according to Wikipedia. I see their point and I think I would only agree if feelings are not integrated with a soul and they are only dealing in ego. Yes, words are tricky little buggers and concepts seldom apply wisdom over facts. What a fact is to one person is often anathema to another. When I apply the word anathema in this context I am not practicing black majik or some socially accepted religious connotation used to curse and ostracize or cause harm through excommunication by a Pope or Council of cretins. You can consider I am using the word as if it were 'abhorrent' to the individual confronted by facts in the same manner one of those councils thought Ivan Illich and his proof about education or other social institutions including their own were abhorrent.

    But we still have words (in the west for certain) which are devoid of soul and this almost pre-empts wisdom or Gnosis before people even try to communicate. I wonder if the social media has a way to overcome this in 155 characters or less? BFF is all fluff and ego - for example, which does not mean people using the term are not exchanging genuine care, but usually it is a very different thing they are exchanging. I consider myself an able Empath with the goal of genuine cognition and true purpose in all interests except when having a joke. I may be an Illuminatus in the eyes of many.

    I admit I have pursued Enlightenment all of my life, and I started this cognitive process in earnest intellectual processing before I attended school, due to a wise father who had returned from a maelstrom of extreme idiocy called World War. My older brothers had missed the input of a 'pixie mind' (My father Jim, called it.) during their early life formative growth which is so important but hey had a more rational mother than I did during these all important years. We had no TV most of the time and I would run to my father asking if I could go to bed and watch the TV in my brain or head. Yes, I am still not sure where one 'see's. Is it in the soul, the spirit, the mind or even just an intellectual process. Astral Travel is common to every person in dream state and a conscious remembrance of it can allow great wisdom to permeate one's life. In psychology it is called journaling, or portalling and many other things in between.

    Thus I find a disconnect often occurs in web world where idiocy and ego reign supreme and criminal hatred is valued over intellectual discourses. People actually believe things like "Everyone has an opinion" or "Evolution is just a theory" entitles them to proselytize common indecencies from the depths of abject neuroses and religious indoctrination. Inalienable Rights are preventing political discourse and planning to allow human life to progress and we are facing extinction that is blamed on the elite who may also have elements who encourage these disconnects with reality. If schools taught soulful wisdom acquisition such as seen in a book called The Wonder Child by top psychological researchers - we might not need the coming wireless implants to overcome past extremist religious indoctrination or the connected Elohim and other scapegoats called angels, demons and aliens. However, I see no movement towards soulful teachings in the West. The inalienable right to "religious freedom" is so perverse and it is the other kind of anathema or should be.

    "When to the garden of untroubled thought
    I came of late, and saw the open door,
    And wished again to enter, and explore
    The sweet, wild ways with stainless bloom inwrought,
    And bowers of innocence with beauty fraught,
    It seemed some purer voice must speak before
    I dared to tread that garden loved of yore,
    That Eden lost unknown and found unsought.

    Then just within the gate I saw a child, --
    A stranger-child, yet to my heart most dear;
    He held his hands to me, and softly smiled
    With eyes that knew no shade of sin or fear:
    "Come in," he said, "and play awhile with me;"
    "I am the little child you used to be."


    Henry Van Dyke"


    "In those long ago days just after World War II, when reading Psychology at the University of London, it was constantly stressed that Intellect and Intelligence should not be seen as synonymous terms—even though their symbiotic relationship in consciousness must be recognized.

    Intellect was seen to denote cognition—the rational mental processes that constitute ‘knowing’: the ability to identify and analyze, memorize, and categorize… the physical characteristics and implications of whatever thing or event is perceived by the senses, thus bringing one to comprehend the objective facts of the external situation. Intelligence, however, was regarded as a mental faculty in its own right—a function of consciousness taking one beyond the facts as such, to suggest meaning or purpose, and determine the course of action to be taken.

    It is a level of consciousness that is triggered by the arousal of Feeling: the psychological phenomenon that accompanies every act of cognition—the ‘felt-thoughts’ that bring to mind one’s latent emotions and sensibilities that accompany not only every sensory experience of the external world... but also attend those moments when internally generated abstract ideas and thoughts take over consciousness. It is the way we feel, and the strength of feeling, that determines how we evaluate the facts of life and how we are driven to respond to them. ‘Feeling-attitudes’ motivate the actions we take: they may stir little or no interest or engage a questing curiosity; give rise to enthusiasms and passions demanding creative (intelligent) responses; or provoke apprehension, fear and a negative retreat.

    Intellect (Fact) and Intelligence (Feeling) determine the existential course of one’s journey through life. Here is a relatively mundane illustration of how they work together:

    You are about to step off the sidewalk and cross the road as a car is bearing down. You visually recognize it as such; register its color, size, make, estimate its speed, the distance between yourself and it, and the time factor involved in crossing safely to the other side: (Intellect—the Cognitive factor.) Immediately, a ’Feeling’ response sets in, allowing one to be confident, apprehensive, or even fearful about crossing the road (the Intelligence, or Affective factor). And the combination of these two modes of consciousness will determine the nature of your actions: whether you stand still, stroll across the street, hurry across, or run like a scalded cat (the Action of Conation factor).

    You could take this mundane illustration as a simplistic analogy for Life itself. A life dominated by Intellect, given to living by Facts alone, is a pretty limited kind of existence. To live devoid of Feeling is to go through life permanently bemused—wandering… with little drive as to direction or purpose.

    Seeing is believing, but feeling’s the naked truth. - John Ray, English Proverbs

    (I must make a short qualification here with regard to the psychological inferences implied by the term ‘Feeling’. It is generally understood that Feeling develops at two levels. Children—say up to the age of five—release feelings as spontaneous expressions of emotion at any given moment, depending on the particular situation in which they find themselves. But as they grow up, such random emotional responses tend to become more ordered, consolidated into predictable emotional ‘attitudes’ to life’s events, forming the basis of individual judgment and action, and are then described as Sentiments—and as such form the basis of the adult individual’s personality.)"


    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...d-intelligence
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-03-2016 at 12:51 AM. Reason: add content

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    I sent a portion of the above post to my oldest brother who responded.

    "An interesting read.

    Just to make some discussion on it, and not because these 2 items are important to the consideration of the paper:

    1. "Seeing is Believing" is true, but it covers this process: the seeing of something (tangible evidence for example) contributes to the process of forming a belief about some matter to which it relates. The fact that such a relationship occurs to one, or is sought by one, required the focus of attention or interest.

    All these items are separate parts of the mind process which Krishnamurti describes in wonderful detail, including intellect, intelligence, wisdom, belief, perception, feeling, consideration, curiosity, consciousness, awareness and contemplation. The use of sanskrit words differentiating atma, bodhi, jiva, etc makes the study much more precise than when using English words which have overlapping meanings (unless a strict definition is agreed upon beforehand). Soul is a particularly difficult word to work with. Persona, jiva, atman, individuality, are included in it by those who use it loosely. Even if strict definitions are agreed upon, the use of less familiar words that don't come loaded with preconceptions, is useful, hence, sanskrit. But Greek would probably work, or French, is no one in the group had baggage on the words.

    So, "seeing is believing" probably applies when there was otherwise some possibility of doubt.

    2. Anathema. I like the use Simone Weil makes of this word, in her "Letter to a Priest". It seems she deplores the willingness, the seeking for opportunities to express, anathema, more than anything else in the negative findings she considers with regard to the Christian Church. Were it not countered by the mysticism of the Carmelites, she probably would have utterly rejected everything Christian, and not have asked the priest the interesting questions she posed.

    To her (and me) saints, Louis 1X, St Bernard, and de Montfort are so unsaintly that they should be purged, excommunicated, and subjected to whatever humiliation is possible for long dead persons.

    cheers"


    Here is my reply to what he said.

    Yes, but Bernard was probably a double or triple agent and what appears in history is always a little lie, at a minimum. Thus 'see'-ing words is not something to believe. A definition is often a limitation and agreement in context is required.

    Yogananda has a way of fulfilling a desire for knowing even when it is impossible to believe it can be true. This is a little something from his Autobiography I hope can touch any reader who wishes for more.

    "“Pratap, I will instruct you in the Kriya of Lahiri Mahasaya, the greatest yogi of modern times. His technique will be your guru.”

    The initiation was concluded in a half hour. “Kriya is your chintamani,” 7 I told the new student. “The technique, which as you see is simple, embodies the art of quickening man’s spiritual evolution. Hindu scriptures teach that the incarnating ego requires a million years to obtain liberation from maya. This natural period is greatly shortened through Kriya Yoga. Just as Jagadis Chandra Bose has demonstrated that plant growth can be accelerated far beyond its normal rate, so man’s psychological development can be also speeded by an inner science. Be faithful in your practice; you will approach the Guru of all gurus.”"
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-03-2016 at 12:24 AM.

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    It will seem less amazing to hear a singer can weave a spell or hypnotize their audience - but the same techniques can aid the singer as well.

    "She was about nine or ten years old when some of the inhabitants of her own mohalla (area) developed a deep enmity with her mother. One night they set her house on fire. Scared of the constant danger, her mother took her to Gaya in Bihar. Later on they shifted to Calcutta. Some time later a music conference was organised to raise funds for the victims of the 1934 earthquake in Bihar. It was here, for the first time, that she sang before an audience and won the hearts of her listeners.

    It was a turning point in her life. Renowned singers and musicians from all parts of India were invited to take part in this function. Begum Akhtar went there with her teacher Ustad Atta Mohammad Khan simply as part of the audience. There was no idea of including her in the programme. At the function time was running out but the artists who had to perform had not arrived. The audience grew restless. The organiser approached Atta Mohammad Khan who requested Begum Akhtar to sing and engage the public for a while.

    Her first ghazal was well appreciated. It encouraged her and she continued singing for more than an hour. The audience forgot everything and sat spellbound. When she came off the stage, a khadi clad woman congratulated her saying, ``I'm very pleased with your singing. I listened to you today, you remember to listen to my lecture tomorrow.'' After this she disappeared. Begum Akhtar later came to know that the person was Sarojini Naidu.

    Her fame spread and gramaphone companies began recording her. She had more than 400 songs recorded. She also worked in theatre and cinema. Entering the film world in 1937, she worked in a few films, notable among them being - ``Roti, Ek Din Ki Badshah'' and ``Mumtaz Begum''. She also sang for films such as ``Nal-o- Damyanti'', ``Nach-Rang'' and ``Ehsan''. In the Satyajit film, ``Jalsaghar'' she performed live and the film was widely acclaimed for its superb music.

    Fortune always smiled on her. Whatever she aspired for, she got. She won innumerable awards and was honoured with Padmashri. Padma Bhushan was conferred on her posthumously. She is well known as the Queen of Thumri and the Queen of Ghazal. Her individuality lies in the fact that she was a great exponent of light classical music, and more so in the fact that it was she who raised its status to great heights.

    She was an expert in the Punjab Ang and Purbi Ang; but she fused the two and produced a third which came to be called after her as Begum Akhtar Ang. This new ang gave the thumri a new tone, elasticity and a turning point which was totally the creation of Begum Akhtar.

    While singing dadra she included suitable Urdu lines so deftly that people who did not like anything else other than classical songs also listened with rapt attention. She very often said that dadra properly handled could be very interesting and touching.

    So far as ghazal singing is concerned she is peerless. She sang the ghazal in different ragas and made them so popular that musical meets are now seldom successful without ghazals.

    In 1967 she had her first heart attack. In spite of having been advised complete rest she began giving recitals within a fortnight. She had a second attack again on July 25, 1974. She recovered but lost her stamina. And finally on October 26, 1974, after singing at a musical meet in Ahmedabad she had third attack. Four days later, the singing bird flew away."


    http://www.thehindu.com/2000/11/03/stories/09030708.htm
    Last edited by R_Baird; 04-05-2016 at 11:00 AM.

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